this post was submitted on 18 Apr 2024

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Socdems being cringe part 4: DSA chapters act like chauvinists during Cuba trip (hexbear.net)

submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by thelastaxolotl@hexbear.net to c/the_dunk_tank@hexbear.net

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DSA qin-shi-huangdi-fireball

Honestly its rude to be invited by a country to meet their president who decided to respond to your criticisms of their administration only to not show up and go meet the opposition.

Being invided and then no showing shows complete disregard to basic diplomatic Etiquette since it was a mission to show solidarity against the embargo

Bonus socdems being cringe part 4.5: about another member that didnt show up to the presidential meeting

Deeply unserious people

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[–] immuredanchorite@hexbear.net 61 points 2 years ago* (42 children)

Her criticisms come from an incredibly idealist perspective and are divorced from any understanding of power or how a communist party functions. Even lauding Fidel, but ignoring him: "within the revolution, everything; against the revolution, nothing". introducing "alternative leftist voices" for its own sake accomplishes nothing but sating the unending liberal tendency to act indecisively and fight amongst each other, even when facing an existential threat. Constantly railing against the "bureaucracy" and constantly trying to create a distinction between the communist party from the masses, from the perspective of an outsider... from the imperial core... from the US no less, the primary enemy of the Cuban revolution... It is incredibly telling that that is what she spends her time on. If she is such an incredible organizer and ardent communist doubt then she should focus on revolution within the US

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[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 51 points 2 years ago (38 children)

Her criticisms come from an incredibly idealist perspective and are divorced from any understanding of power or how a communist party functions

I'll emphasize again, and not a attack on the person who wrote it but a reminder of reality, DSA is not a communist party.

It is not a leninist party of the new type, it is a social democratic party in function regardless of whatever form they or anyone else claim to be.

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[–] immuredanchorite@hexbear.net 47 points 2 years ago (4 children)

I agree completely. The DSA has been an anti-communist project from its conception. This person claims to be giving a "marxist critique" though, and that is what I was addressing. The unfortunate reality is that many people with revolutionary aspirations end up being siphoned into DSA and believe that they are communists. But in reality, most people who join the DSA are exposed to these garbage takes, the incessant factionalism, and ineffectual action, and think that that is what socialist organizing is. They become disaffected and it drives people away from communist parties and organizing in general when the goal should be to bring people in and change their understanding of democracy into a participatory, socialist one. Most DSA members are just members on paper because of this.

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[–] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 42 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Yep. I joined DSA back in 2016 and quickly got burnt out on the backbiting, drama and liberal signaling and stopped attending after just a few meetings and events. I went on to go to other communist groups, but if I had stuck around there I would still be sitting around in meetings with people bickering about whether Cuba is an autocracy or not.

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[–] VILenin@hexbear.net 49 points 2 years ago

Hello fellow comrades, like you I am a lover of communism, but we must keep in mind that activates John Kirby mode, recites State Department briefing verbatim

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[–] MayoPete@hexbear.net 1 point 2 years ago

I encourage anyone reading this to revive this discussion I started about improving DSA on a local level.

https://hexbear.net/post/1541502

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[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 27 points 2 years ago

Yes, truly one of the two sheepdog tailers for the DNC, regardless of how many ride-alonger fleas there are trying to change its course by tugging at its hairs.

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[–] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 42 points 2 years ago* (3 children)

But there is a second aspect of the crisis which we did not focus on during this delegation: a crisis of political legitimacy. Cuba’s government is a regime where decision-making power rests in the hands of the Central Committee of the PCC (the only legal political party) alongside its bureaucracy while the elected legislature is a disempowered rubber-stamp committee. Legally recognized mass organizations we met with on this delegation, like the Committees for the Defense of the Revolution, Federation of Cuban Women, and the Workers’ Central Union of Cuba, are loyal to the bureaucracy, while independent political organizing is repressed.

This is from that "comrade" who skipped the meeting with the president. Tells you all you need to know about them. The DSA didn't focus on this "second aspect" but she really wanted to hijack the trip and make it about this instead of the blockade, so she pulled some immature stunt to get attention for her idealist bullshit

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[–] VILenin@hexbear.net 46 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Bloviating about your concerns and then refusing to meet with the President of the fucking country to address those very concerns shows that it’s just a bad faith stunt to put yourself on a pedestal above the unclean impure real-life socialist country that has to deal with matters of practical governance.

Vague critiques of “authoritarianism” betray a total lack of understanding as to the functioning of literally any state on the planet.

The whole “how can you criticize X when they’ve been doing things in real life while you just sit there with your stupid books”, aside from being presumptuous, is just bog standard anti-intellectualism that friend of the site Roderic Day does a much better job of taking apart than me.

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[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 27 points 2 years ago

friend of the site Roderic Day does a much better job of taking apart than me.

I thought people were joking about that until I saw him actually talking about hexbear and saying our doomers are dooming too much

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[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 26 points 2 years ago

You saw the other comment I made about if I pulled a diplomatic faux pas like that I would want to resign out of embarrassment?

I really hope she feels embarrassment on a whole different magnitude

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 years ago* (28 children)

I’ll emphasize again, and not a attack on the person who wrote it but a reminder of reality, DSA is not a communist party.

Not a communist party, yet

Hopefully the more effectively organized left wing can succeed in eventually taking it over, this last wave of elections seems promising to that effect.

:bloomer:

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[–] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 26 points 2 years ago (6 children)

entryism has never worked a single time in history i'm pretty sure

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[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 41 points 2 years ago (1 child)

The only time it worked was when Kenyan communists took over a socdem party, and the very big difference between their entryism and virtually every other instance of entryism is that Kenya had banned communist parties, so there was no way to openly organize as communists. After Kenya lifted the ban on communist parties, there was a line struggle between social democrats who wanted the Social Democratic Party to stay a social democratic party and communists who used the Social Democratic Party to get around the ban on communist parties with the communists winning out. Once they kicked the socdems to the curb, they changed the party's name to the Communist Party of Kenya.

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[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 28 points 2 years ago

Big fucking W for our Kenyan comrades

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Not saying to do entryism, I think the org is organically moving left as left folks have more success.

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[–] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 13 points 2 years ago (2 children)

i'm not holding my breath.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 16 points 2 years ago

I'm definitely coming at this through rose tinted glasses (pardon the pun) because my local chapter are actual communists who disagree with the bernsteinist politics of DSA at large.

I just don't see any alternative orgs to hop onto at the moment tbh.

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[–] cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago

I mean one of the two current cochairs of DSA is in an ML caucus. It’s not a sure thing they’ll maintain power long enough to corral the libs towards a better politic but it’s not totally outside the realm of possibility.

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[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 19 points 2 years ago (6 children)

The trots that infiltrated the DNC thought the same thing back in the day, but look how that turned out.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago (5 children)

I guess the question is is the DSA hopelessly captured by the dems or not? I know my local chapter isn't, I know some who are, I'm not sure about nationals.

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[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 18 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Personally, I would say it's a completely reformist institution with about as much hopes for achieving socialism as the eurocommunists of the EU do.

I'm not particularly against people being a part of it or other organizations as long as they are gaining good experience and education that they can carry on with them in their life and other more professional parties should try chose to move on.

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[–] cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Well that’s kind of the key isn’t it. DSA’s structure is going to be worthless in any sort of revolutionary crisis. However, communists in DSA have access to an audience of underdeveloped but sometimes open minded libs that are willing to listen and learn. They can help convert them into the kinds of organizers with good politics that will be necessary for any future party to succeed.

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[–] jack@hexbear.net 1 point 2 years ago (2 children)

Not having a vehicle to do effective political work makes converting those people pointless. You change people's minds by being the party that does effective work. Join a real org.

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[–] cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

I disagree that’s it’s pointless. I think it’s a necessary precondition towards building an effective party that actually has a mass membership given the conditions of the US. However if people disagree and want to join PSL or CPUSA instead then they should!

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[–] jack@hexbear.net 1 point 2 years ago

Why is the assumption that a mass movement can only be built through a less radical organization? Radicalism wins the legitimate that draws the masses. PSL's extremely strong line on Palestine, predating 10/7, has lead to an explosion in applications. Our uncompromising anti-imperialism is a strength at connecting with the masses.

And when you convert people within DSA (resisting internal forces to do so) what do they do then? The organization cripples its ability to take action through its structure.

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[–] Maoo@hexbear.net 6 points 2 years ago (13 children)

It's not going to become one. The only similar outcome would occur due to a split.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago (12 children)

I'd settle for a split that creates a national communist organization

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[–] jack@hexbear.net 2 points 2 years ago (11 children)

Just join PSL , why waste your time in an organization whose structure necessitates constant pointless factionalism?

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 years ago (10 children)

The way they respond to sexual abuse allegations, I've also heard they have a very non-leninist idea of what democratic centralism entails.

Also the ones in my area seem more interested in recruiting than doing literally anything at all outside of recruiting

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[–] jack@hexbear.net 2 points 2 years ago* (9 children)

The way they respond to sexual abuse allegations

Honestly how is that? This is always so vague. There was one high profile case that the organization was slow to respond. The accused was suspended and left during their suspension. Then we established a national-level body composed entirely of survivors to investigate and adjudicate these cases. We learned from a structural failure and adjusted how we operate to prevent that from happening again.

've also heard they have a very non-leninist idea of what democratic centralism entails

Please elaborate.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 years ago (8 children)

Honestly how is that? This is always so vague. There was one high profile case that the organization was slow to respond

Are you referring to the Steven Powers case? Because the issues there go further than failing to respond, they straight up used disciplinary measures to protect an abuser. And the Steven powers case isn't the only one.

I will admit my bias on this issue though, I've had several encounters with PSL members where they've disrespected my bodily autonomy in mild-moderate ways to the point that I feel it is a pattern and am more inclined to believe specific reports of abuse.

Then we established a national-level body composed entirely of survivors to investigate and adjudicate these cases.

Can you give me any details on this?

Please elaborate.

From what I've heard they use the idea of democratic centralism to shut down debate during the democratic process instead of after a decision has been reached democratically.

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[–] jack@hexbear.net 2 points 2 years ago (7 children)

Can you give me any details on this?

The result of the internal process around Steven Powers is that it was poorly handled at all levels and structures needed to be put in place to ensure that never happened again. The body I referred to above has final authority on any cases related to sexual impropriety, harassment, and abuse. Comrades are able to directly contact this body if they feel the need to go around intermediate leadership bodies for any reason.

From what I've heard they use the idea of democratic centralism to shut down debate during the democratic process instead of after a decision has been reached democratically.

I've been in the party for two years and never seen anything like this. Our practice of democratic centralism is extremely democratic, and even candidates who don't get a formal vote are given significant say in the process. I don't know how else to repudiate something so vague.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 years ago* (6 children)

The result of the internal process around Steven Powers is that it was poorly handled at all levels and structures needed to be put in place to ensure that never happened again. The body I referred to above has final authority on any cases related to sexual impropriety, harassment, and abuse. Comrades are able to directly contact this body if they feel the need to go around intermediate leadership bodies for any reason.

What other changes happened beyond being able to go to this body directly and skip intermediate leadership? Because that sounds like a good idea but also completely inadequate on its own.

I’ve been in the party for two years and never seen anything like this. Our practice of democratic centralism is extremely democratic, and even candidates who don’t get a formal vote are given significant say in the process. I don’t know how else to repudiate something so vague.

https://fashbusters.wordpress.com/2020/12/30/psl-stalked-doxxed-harassed-steven-powers-accuser/

this goes into some misuse of democratic centralism in the Steven case. Not sure about the politics of the site but the evidence provided seems pretty damning. You'll note that the issue with the case wasn't a delayed reaction, the response by women in national leadership was pretty overtly anti-feminist.

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[–] jack@hexbear.net 3 points 2 years ago (5 children)

What other changes happened beyond being able to go to this body directly and skip intermediate leadership? Because that sounds like a good idea but also completely inadequate on its own.

What more would you suggest? Any accusation is an immediate suspension. Then it goes to this body. The system is simple and direct.

this goes into some misuse of democratic centralism in the Steven case. Not sure about the politics of the site but the evidence provided seems pretty damning. You'll note that the issue with the case wasn't a delayed reaction, the response by women in national leadership was pretty overtly anti-feminist.

The politics of the site is it's an anarchist who hates PSL and exclusively writes about how PSL is and why tankies are bad.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 years ago* (4 children)

What more would you suggest? Any accusation is an immediate suspension. Then it goes to this body. The system is simple and direct.

The problem is that being able to escalate it to another committee doesn't really resolve the organizational issues that allow abuse? Abuse takes a lot of grooming of accomplices, how does PSL inoculate against that and how do they determine what organizational failures within a group allowed for abuse to happen and correct them?

The politics of the site is it’s an anarchist who hates PSL and exclusively writes about how PSL is and why tankies are bad.

Oh, well fuck them then. The evidence from the org they present still paints a very shitty picture of the org. Is the letter from women in national leadership doctored?

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[–] jack@hexbear.net 2 points 2 years ago (3 children)

The problem is that being able to escalate it to another committee doesn't really resolve the organizational issues that allow abuse? Abuse takes a lot of grooming of accomplices, how does PSL inoculate against that and how do they determine what organizational failures within a group allowed for abuse to happen and correct them?

The Powers instance was an established romantic relationship - not something that came as a result of an organizational power structure. We clearly and strongly oppose any instances of abuse, have structures in place to report, investigate and punish it, and have a clear political explanation of why a serious revolutionary organization must aggressively oppose abusive, exploitative, and chauvinistic behavior within its membership. We also do our best to identify these behaviors during our month-long onboarding process, though of course people can hide that stuff. I would again need an example of what the structural issues are in order to suggest a solution.

Oh, well fuck them then. The evidence from the org they present still paints a very shitty picture of the org. Is the letter from women in national leadership doctored?

I don't deny that the case was badly mishandled; that is the position of the party. I believe those issues have been corrected and we have a very strong feminist line.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 years ago (2 children)

The Powers instance was an established romantic relationship

it is pretty common for people in orgs to get involved, it is something that should be planned for
it seems like in this case the abuser was using people as accomplices, otherwise the response from the local org wouldn't have been what it was.

We also do our best to identify these behaviors during our month-long onboarding process,

How?

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[–] jack@hexbear.net 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

it is pretty common for people in orgs to get involved, it is something that should be planned for

Genuinely what would you suggest?

it seems like in this case the abuser was using people as accomplices, otherwise the response from the local org wouldn't have been what it was.

Yes; there was no mechanism to go around local leadership. Now there is.

How?

Explain the policy, talk a great deal about comradely behavior and expectations of conduct, and do our best to get their vibe. If that's not sufficient I would again ask for a concrete suggestion.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 years ago

Genuinely what would you suggest?

How much political education goes into learning about how abuse culture perpetuates itself in activist subcultures?

Yes; there was no mechanism to go around local leadership. Now there is.

That's kinda beside the point, that only helps if the victim is actually reporting

Explain the policy, talk a great deal about comradely behavior and expectations of conduct, and do our best to get their vibe. If that’s not sufficient I would again ask for a concrete suggestion.

I'd need to know more detail on how this is done.

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[–] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 35 points 2 years ago (1 child)

She could save others from Liberalism but not herself

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[–] VILenin@hexbear.net 28 points 2 years ago

Trotskyists attacking the CPC while the country is being invaded by the genocidal IJA vibes

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[–] Juice@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago

I'll pass your message along

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