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[–] 144 points 3 weeks ago (25 children)

Of all the people who have incredibly strong opinions about not-so-incredibly important things, the virulently anti-systemd crowd are among the ones that baffle me the most.

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  • [–] 79 points 3 weeks ago* (9 children)

    There are many legitimate complaints. Bundling a bunch of services into a single binary goes completely against Unix philosophy. Systemd changing from text to binary logs is my pet peeve.

    Copying how Windows does things isn't necessarily the best.

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  • [–] 55 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    It's not people disliking it that makes no sense to me; everyone has their opinions.

    I just can't imagine having the level of anger displayed by some of the most vocal of the anti-systemd crowd.

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  • [–] 30 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

    If your favorite thing is being ruined and you can't stop it, I can understand frustration being displayed as anger.

    It's the same when Windows users get angry at things like OneDrive. It's forced on them and they don't want to have to work around removing it like people having to work around how Gnome is integrated into systemd.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

    If your favorite thing is being ruined and you can't stop it, I can understand frustration being displayed as anger.

    That's the joy of open source though: you can stop it. You are free to use another init system, fork projects, etc. With Windows, you can't do any of that. Since it's closed source, workarounds that may be temporary are all you can do.

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  • [–] 29 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

    That's the joy of open source though: you can stop it.

    Not really. Unless you are prepared to devote your life to changing the source code to what you want, you have to accept it. And because you forked you are no longer downstream and will have to spend the rest of your life keeping up with patches.

    It's not much different than Windows. You could write a OneDrive uninstaller but you will have to spend the rest of your life with patches every time MS updates and breaks your uninstaller.

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  • [–] 39 points 3 weeks ago

    You know it's not a single binary, right ? Systemd is a bunch of different, mostly single usage, mostly optional, binaries. As far as Unix philosophy goes, Systemd is definitely following the principles, which is not the case for the Kernel for instance.

    As for the binary logs, I used to hate it, but then, not having to manually parse logs for filtering is really nice.

    I do have my issues with Systemd, but it not following the Unix philosophy is not one of them.

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  • [–] 27 points 3 weeks ago (12 children)

    Richard P. Gabriel, in his essay β€œThe Rise of Worse-is-Better,” expounds on this theme (see Appendix A). His thesis is that the Unix design philosophy requires that all design decisions err on the side of implementation simplicity, and not on the side of correctness, consistency, or completeness. He calls this the β€œWorse Is Better” philosophy and shows how it yields programs that are technically inferior to programs designed where correctness and consistency are paramount, but that are evolutionarily superior because they port more easily. Just like a virus.

    The highest achievement of the Unix-aesthetic is to have a command that does precisely one function, and does it well (...) This philosophy, in the hands of amateurs, leads to inexplicably mind-numbing botches like the existence of two programs, β€œhead” and β€œtail,” which print the first part or the last part of a file, depending. Even though their operations are duals of one another, β€œhead” and β€œtail” are different programs, written by different authors, and take different options!

    From The Unix Hater's Handbook

    (I like Linux, but it's not all sunshine and rainbows)

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  • [–] 14 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    That head/tail thing is kind of a goofy argument. For one thing they aren't duals; tail is naturally more complex because the end of a file often changes and the application can optionally keep showing you the new output. Also, the fact that they're separate applications in the first place is arguably better than the a one-application approach, which would always require a command line switch to select between outputting the start or end of a file. And finally, while I guess this could vary between implementations of head and tail, mine has identical switches for all the common options.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    They could have been two commands that call a single parent command with different options. For example, imagine if cat had an option -N to restrict the number of lines that was printed, and also an option -t to start from the end. head would just proxy to cat -N and tail would proxy to cat -N -t. Combining the three into a single implementation reduces total LoC and opportunity for bugs. Also reduces total maintenance burden.

    I believe busybox is like this actually - a ton of Unix commands in a single package. It's used by Alpine Linux, a tiny and performance linux distro commonly used by docker containers.

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  • [–] 22 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (4 children)

    There's also a few cases of feature and scope creep, including the infamous systemd-resolved.
    Systemd, your job is to launch services, manage logs, and do timers and relaunches on a service crash. DNS is out of scope, leave that to existing services.

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  • [–] 17 points 3 weeks ago

    I was annoyed with binary logs until I found cases where compressing logs was literally 10x or more improvement, like if you ran into a bug that just repeatedly spit the same log.

    And I know logrotate compresses text logs too but if you're going to compress logs into tar.gz, might as well just make it binary by default and have a nice interface (journald) on top

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  • [–] 14 points 3 weeks ago (7 children)

    The other day on a thread here about "people who use other init systems, why?" and i wrote about my experience with systemd and git downvoted for mysterious reasons. Other people that did the same as me also got their downvote sixpacks. And now they want to make it seem like it's just the people that hate systemd the annoying ones...

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  • [–] 11 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    The real problem with systemd is figuring out what's is or isn't part of systemd...

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    [–] 67 points 3 weeks ago (10 children)

    There's legitimate criticism of systemd and I do understand that people can hate it.

    Anyways, systemd is so nice to use. Even more with nixos.

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    [–] 54 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

    It's like that very very old joke...

    Geek: "So then I brought the girl home..."
    Excited crowd: "and then?"
    Geek: "then I pushed the keyboard and sat her on my desk..."
    Excited crowd: "woah, you have a PC? What processor do you have? Do you overclock? What cooling do you use?"

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    [–] 49 points 3 weeks ago

    I like systemd because my distro came with it and my computer boots.

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  • [–] 32 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    Linux users: come join the community! It's free, safe, and accessible!

    Also Linux users: you fucking swine? You do WHAT?!

    Like just be happy more people are joining the community and contributing. Shesh

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  • [–] 6 points 3 weeks ago

    I once saw a guy standing on the edge of a bridge, about to jump. I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!"

    He said, "Why shouldn't I? Nobody cares about me."

    I said, "Well, do you run Linux?"

    He said, "Yes."

    I said, "Me too! Desktop or server?"

    He said, "Server."

    I said, "Me too! Debian-based or RPM-based?"

    He said, "Debian-based."

    I said, "Me too! Debian stable or Ubuntu LTS?"

    He said, "Debian stable."

    I said, "Me too! systemd or an alternative init?"

    He said, "Alternative init."

    I said, "Me too! runit, OpenRC, or s6?"

    He said, "s6."

    I said, "Me too! s6 with s6-rc as the service manager, or s6 with 66?"

    He said, "s6-rc."

    I said, "Me too! s6-rc with the full supervision tree defined declaratively, or with hand-rolled run scripts?"

    He said, "Hand-rolled run scripts."

    I said, "Die, Poettering apologist!" And I pushed him off.

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  • [–] 28 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

    I was genuinely looking for alternatives to systemd, just because I was curious.

    I stumbled upon: https://nosystemd.org/

    The anger sits deep. What a beautiful sight.

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    [–] 23 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

    Systemd and Wayland have become ragebait for some people.

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    [–] 15 points 3 weeks ago

    Yes, I do. And even worse: I like it. 😈

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  • [–] 15 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)
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    [–] 12 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

    There's no way he'd get laid with a keyboard like that.

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    [–] 12 points 3 weeks ago

    Gentoo lured me into OpenRC a long time ago and it's just basically my go to now. It's just so easy and "feels" less bloated to me.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    I do as well and honestly after looking into the effort required to switch I’m not gonna. Altho my Linux doesn’t boot rn soooo… xD

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  • [–] 7 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    What are the alternatives to systemd? Why people are hating it (besides the AI slop and age verification stub in it)? Why is it not written in the D programming language?

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