I'd just like to point him towards Salem, MA in 1692, where nearly everyone thought they followed God's doctrine, and therefore made unquestionably good moral decisions.
Step one: don't be a dumbass.
Step two: don't seek advice from a mentally ill person who thinks the voices in their head are an angel/god/space aliens
This mentality sort of reaffirms something I was telling a friend once. He has been atheist his whole life, but I was raised Christian. He was asking me what I meant by I "heard" God and the like. I told him that, looking back, I'd describe it as just my conscience. The same way people describe things as a voice telling them to not do a bad thing. It's not a literal voice, more of a feeling in your gut.
If Christians fully believe that is 100% God talking to them, I can sort of get why some might have trouble understanding why atheists aren't all psychopaths. That's being pretty generous though. At least some of them really do seem to believe that, without the threat of damnation, even they themselves would do deplorable things. At least they say they would. I have a hard time believing there are a lot of totally sadistic, hedonistic people that would really change if they became atheists. It usually feels more like a half thought out tough guy persona. Like they encounter a well behaved atheist and don't understand why the atheist isn't doing drugs and having rampant sex, then they say they'd be doing those things if they could.
I'm sure some Christians think this way, I wasn't one of them.
Before waking up, what I struggled with wasn't that atheists had an inner voice just like me, to discern right from wrong;
It was that I didn't understand why they were slaves to their consciences. It seemed reasonable to me that without objective morals, people could rape and murder as much as they want.
I'm now an atheist and now I rape and murder as much as I want (which is none).
don't understand why the atheist isn't doing drugs and having rampant sex,
I would argue that you can do both of those things and still be morally right as long as it's all safe and consenting.
I think that Christians over-estimate how morally bankrupt they would be without Christianity, because they believe that every human is the worst without Jesus. At least that's what they tell me.
I agree that you can do those things and be morally right, I was just using it as an example because the Christians often use it as an example of the types of things they'd be doing if they were allowed to.
Which sort of demonstrates that even while they may not agree or be consciously aware of it, they do have an idea of the type of morals they'd follow if they didn't believe in God. Because that's the example of the thing they'd want to do instead of say, just murdering people, it shows they would likely follow the "golden rule" idea (treat others the way you want to be treated).
I remember towards the end of my belief I sort of viewed it like there are things that are wrong according to my religion (like being gay) and there are things that are universally wrong (like murder). The big difference was that universal wrongs involved harm. I didn't see the harm in being gay (because there is none, lol), so I didn't believe it was something Christians should try to stop non Christians from doing. Yes, I was experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance lol. This topic basically led to my eventually and final moment of rejecting my belief in God. I could no longer reconcile the idea of a loving, benevolent god with the idea that harmless activities were sin. It all fell apart shortly after. I'd already long been on a shaky foundation of "I think the American Church is bad, but Jesus is good" sort of stance. But it's all interconnected. Once you start to believe some of the stories are metaphors or myths, they all start to become metaphors or myths. If you don't believe in a literal virgin birth and literal resurrection, then the entire divinity and sacrifice of Jesus comes into question. And what did I have left? Nothing.
But my life is so much better now. Nothing has been more freeing than leaving the church and leaving behind the idea of god. Sorry this sort of got big and personal lol. Happy pride.
This argument has bugged me since the early 2000s. The guy who did the McDonalds Super Size Me (somewhat fake, I now understand) documentary got a stupid reality tv show and some dumbass christian (who had to live with a Muslim family for a month) asked the same goddamned question.
He also wondered if the family, while saying prayers in their native language, might be saying something like "death to america." You know, in front of television cameras during the height of our "war on terror." That's how fucking stupid these people are.
They are holding us back. If their fear and hatred couldn't be weaponized, we'd have a much nicer society.
christian (who had to live with a Muslim family
don't forget Christians and Muslims are literally cut from the same cloth - both are pretty much just offshoots of Judaism. Judaism itself is just a random tribal religion (of which there have been countless thousands) that somehow didn't get dropped and forgotten about as humans moved into the modern era. It's frankly weird that over half the world's population belong to one of these Jewish sects (and also a bit funny that there are only a handful of million who follow the OG Jewish religion).
And yes it's frustrating that so many people are so stupid as to base their lives around something that collapses under the slightest objective scrutiny, and probably not surprising that a not-insignificant number of them want to literally kill followers of all the other offshoots.
The problem is, there is inherent human need not to think. Some need it more, some need it less.
If tonight some magical device removes religion from all of history, we will simply find out whet other idea will those people latch unto. Would it be nationalism? Would it be cult of personality? Perhaps trusting only single media group, or discarding any research paper not done by "racially pure" group? Would they claim "how can we trust foreigners? if they do not follow our leader, they cannot be moral, right?"
Though I do wonder if things would be even worse if those people didn't have religion claiming there's external punishment or reward if they control themselves a bit.
Though when Christianity tried to resolve the "if I cross the line into eternal damnation then I might as well do whatever I want after that" problem by saying they can repent, it opened up a "do whatever you want and then repent" loophole, so it could do as much to make people think they can get away with shit, especially when combined with a strong belief that the afterlife will be better.
Also, I think the shitiness is ingrained deep in our species, hell in most species. The reality is that strategic betrayal has always been the optimal solution to the prisoner dilemma, and while real world versions of it continue after that betrayal, I'd bet a high portion of historic animal ones involved the one intending to be nice or trusting not surviving, so I'd guess that survival of the fittest has a bias towards opportunistic assholes.
I’ve always hated this question, because christians like the guy in the picture don’t draw their morality from the bible. They decide on their moral framework, then read the bible to find verses that support it. I don’t see anyone adhering to the mixed thread fabrics rule.
I never buy blended fabrics. I didn't take much else from the bible except for the rule on blended fabrics, and the verse about a bear that mauled 42 boys for mocking a bald guy. These are the only lessons I live by.
Ezekiel 23:20 is my daily affirmation
I love what Penn Jillette has to say on the subject:
I HAVE ALREADY KILLED AND RAPED EVERY SINGLE PERSON I ACTUALLY WANT TO KILL AND RAPE.
The number of my victims is ZERO, and if your number is not zero you are sick and should be kept away from society.
I agree with Penn, but I can't help but think that if I was given a Death Note, I would feel morally obligated to write quite a few names in it. Names of people who are personally responsible for a great amount of suffering in the world.
It's not that I want to kill people. It's that if I had a guaranteed way of stopping these people with no personal risk, I would feel obligated to do so, even if it meant killing them.
Someone make a spin of that old capitalist mindset meme with the button "press to get 1 million bucks but a random person dies" and they spam the shit out of it. But now it's you (and me) hammering away at that "you get nothing but a random billionaire or pedophile dies" buzzer.
Killing in defense of innocent people is morally upright nearly without question, so you’d be clean either way.
But I’m with you that if I had a death note things would he different.
I had a guy I worked with ask me “ if you don’t believe in god whats stopping you from raping and murdering people?” I said “because I don’t want to do any of those things” I definitely looked at that dude weird after that
"Nothing, do you have a sister? Where does she live?"
I am a natural born asshole and don't think debating with the religiously impaired is a useful exercise.
If there's no Mom, what's stopping you from pooping your pants?
Religious nuts wouldn't understand this response.
Because it's waaay to clever.
I helped out a random stranger the other day. Not gonna tell the long story but He kept saying God must have guided me and God must be looking out for me too.
I didn't want to get into with him but No bro. I helped you because I saw you needed help. And figured I was in a position to do so. I had some extra time that day and just happened to be where you were.
Wasn't God.
I help people when I can because why not ? The relief on someone's face is enough payment. Plus I feel guilty when I don't help when I can. Not from fear of damnation but my empathy requires I do something.
Strangers have helped me in the past. I know how much of a difference that can make.
It's just frustrating to have your own "good" behaviors constantly assumed to be caused by God.
No. I chose to help. Me. No one else was involved. Isn't that a better lesson anyway? That there are people who help from a place of support rather than fear of judgement. ? Or some divine force ?
all hail daannii, god of helping strangers
Sounds good to me! All bow down to daanii or be purged! PURGE THE HERETICS!
Next time you can say "God got you in trouble"
If you need the threat of eternal punishment to be a good person, then you are not a good person.
This argument is the same that Kant made. Kant defended the notion that a person should do the correct thing for the sole reason that it is the correct thing.
Like putting the shopping cart back where it belongs
I'll entertain the spirit of the question.
Most "good choices" and "bad choices" are fairly easy to figure out. Would you want this thing done to you? If no, then do not do that thing. That's going to cover the vast majority of cases.
There are some exceptions. Sometimes one might need to balance the needs of the many against the needs of the few. Sometimes one might be presented with a set of all-bad options. Those situations are vanishingly rare, and usually limited to circumstances where group consensus can help one determine which choice is acceptable to the greatest number.
But it's not always easy, and it's not always clear. I actually had a version of this conversation at a wedding with a guy who had his master's degree in philosophy and another guy who was a devout Christian who was suffering a profound crisis of faith because his toddler nephew had just died of a brain aneurism.
The crisis-experiencing Christian asked me "Isn't it scary when there aren't clear answers?"
And my answer was "Yes, frequently. I often wish that there was an obvious or comforting answer to the terrifying conundrums of reality. But there often isn't, and it's my job as an adult to figure out what to do in those situations. Work out the moral calculus of what kind of world I want to create, try to work towards that world, and try to cope when reality won't cooperate in the ways that I wish it would."
Sometimes it's a cold universe out there, and you've got to build yourself a fire out of coherent philosophy to get through the night. Relying on dogma is a lot like a shot of brandy; it might make you feel warm for a while, but eventually the cold will get to you, and you've got to have that sustaining fire or else you're going to freeze to death.
Empathy. How is this so hard to grasp?
My favorite answer is a question: So without God, you would murder, rape and steal? No? Well, then it seems to me you don't need God to know what is morally correct.
Even better...
I already commit all the rapes and thefts I want to commit. 0. If you actually want to rape/steal than you're probably too far gone for Christ's forgiveness anyways.
A lot of those religious types scare me that one of the first things they'd do without consequences is murder and rape.
I've thought about this a lot actually, but I figured it out. So when you're presented with a good choice and a bad choice, you go for the good one. Works every time.
The irony is that empathy is such a foreign concept, yet "love thy brother" is kind of a big highlight to that whole Bible thing.
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