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[–] [S] 201 points 4 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 52 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (5 children)

    Unironically, I am on the fence about whether a lot of folks are genuinely conscious. Their morality is so twisted I don’t believe it.

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  • [–] 33 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Frank Herbert would say no to people that never reached past concrete thought and didn't hit abstract thought and just live their life with animal instincts and never critically self examine what they do and think.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago

    It’s interesting for certain. I will end up in a discussion with down-with-the-government coworkers who twist themselves into knots to align themselves with pre-approved Republican stances. What do you mean you don’t care about birth gender markers causing passport issues for trans people, how are you okay with the concept of paying for a chance at a passport in the first place when you think licenses and car inspections are overreach and restrict your right to travel? But I think today’s work-life balance and in particular the employer standard of ‘owning your time’ that occurred in the Industrial Revolution calls for a certain level of turning off your brain.

    Who knows though. There’s a lot of archaeological and anthropological evidence that shows people in prehistoric times did a lot of thinking on their morality, on governance, on how society should be formed. But it’s harder to quantify how many of them were tuned in and how many were just going through the motions like modern times.

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  • [–] 64 points 4 months ago* (58 children)

    The actual article isn't nearly as stupid as the tweet makes it seem. I recommend giving it a read. It's behind a shitty paywall, but if you use Firefox's reader mode (Ctrl-Alt-R, or the little papper icon to the right side of the address bar) as soon as the page loads, you can read it.

    His argument is basically that LLMs are able to do things we previously thought only conscious beings would be capable of doing, and so, if they aren't conscious, then perhaps consciousness isn't as important as we thought it was:

    Brains under natural selection have evolved this astonishing and elaborate faculty we call consciousness. It should confer some survival advantage. There should exist some competence which could only be possessed by a conscious being. My conversations with several Claudes and ChatGPTs have convinced me that these intelligent beings are at least as competent as any evolved organism. If Claudia really is unconscious, then her manifest and versatile competence seems to show that a competent zombie could survive very well without consciousness.

    Why did consciousness appear in the evolution of brains? Why wasn’t natural selection content to evolve competent zombies? I can think of three possible answers.

    Some people will surely contest his claim that LLMs are as competent as evolved organisms. There's definitely a bit of AI boomerism at play here (we have benchmarks that show just how incompetent LLMs can be), but I don't think that invalidates his point, because LLMs can be very competent in the domains they're trained to be competent in -- they just aren't AGI.

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  • [–] 62 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

    Man, those conversations are eye roll inducing

    I like the shift away from "are they conscious" towards "what's a way to define consciousness?"

    Because that's the actual important question. And literally nobody can answer it. Any discussion is more philosophy than hard science

    The most interesting part is the last paragraph

    Or, thirdly, are there two ways of being competent, the conscious way and the unconscious (or zombie) way? Could it be that some life forms on Earth have evolved competence via the consciousness trick — while life on some alien planet has evolved an equivalent competence via the unconscious, zombie trick? And if we ever meet such competent aliens, will there be any way to tell which trick they are using?

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  • [+] 23 points 4 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 22 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    I think, when we finally do have a generally-accepted definition of consciousness, we will be deeply unsettled by how simple it is. How unprofound. Like a magic trick after you know how it works. And I think it will require us to think hard about what to do with animals and software that have it.

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  • [–] 26 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I feel like that's exactly why we don't have a generally-accepted definition of consciousness. Western ethics assigns special protection to whatever is conscious, so it is convenient to come up with a definition of consciousness, which excludes groups you want to exploit.

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  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago

    Tale as old as time, or at least the conscious idea of time. Whatever consciousness is, we are it. Those humans over there though? Who's to say they aren't sub-humans? Isn't it our job to enlighten them and also take their land and food and things and selves?

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Personally I'm in the "consciousness is an illusion and every time you go to bed a different person wakes up in the morning" camp.

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I would consider this to be two separate, semi-related concepts asserted together, one that consciousness is an illusion, and one that you are a different person each day.

    The first point draws many questions; consciousness is an illusion of what? What mechanism causes the illusion? How does it cause it? Why does the illusion exist? And you may note that you could replace illusion in those questions with consciousness and be left in a similar (though still distinct) place. So simply calling consciousness an illusion seems to me to kick the can down the road without actually addressing the problem.

    As for being a different person after a lapse in awareness, I’d like to take it a step further and say that you could be considered a new person with every change in moment. It’s easy enough to look back 10 years and say “yeah, that’s a younger me, but they’re not the same as me I can just see the path that led to where I am now.” Getting closer, you may feel different today compared to yesterday depending on various factors (sleep, diet, events), but are you a different person because you slept and had a lapse of awareness, or because the state of your mind and thoughts have shifted? When your internal monologue (or equivalent thought) asks “what is this guy talking about?” Is it not thinking “what” in a brand new context given the words it is responding to, forming a new beginning to a thought that puts the mind in a unique state primed to then enter a new state of “is?” And if the mind is in a unique state of novelty, could the person attached to the mind be considered distinct from the person that existed before?

    There is a reason the word revelation exists, it indicates when a person has a novel thought that changes their perspective or way of thinking, altering who they are. Would they not be a new person despite being aware of the process of their change? Due to the above points I don’t think new personhood only occurs at sleep, but constantly. The rate of change may quicken or slow, but the change is always there.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago

    By consciousness being an illusion I mean that we place great value on the uninterrupted continuation of our consciousness, but I think it's likely that it (exactly as you suggest) only really exists in the moment. The illusion would then be the illusion that consciousness is uninterrupted, when in reality you're almost constantly recreating yourself from memory.

    This would, incidentally, make us concerningly similar to current AI models.

    Of course I have no way of actually knowing any of this. It's just what I'm betting on, because otherwise I think it's really hard to explain any unconsciousness (be it sleep, general anesthesia, suspended animation or the Star Trek transporter) as anything short of death. My belief "solves" this problem by rejecting the whole premise of uninterrupted consciousness.

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    [–] 56 points 4 months ago (14 children)

    The whole reason they seem this way is because they're designed by us to be very competent mimics of us.

    LLMs/GenAI are absolutely not conscious. They're just a really advanced game of word association, which cab lead them to say absolutely anything in response to the right prompts.

    If there ever truly is a day where we knowingly created an actual conscious AGI, I suspect it would be locked up tighter than fort knox by whichever country's military found it first - not interfaced onto the internet to answer questions.

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  • [–] 26 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    I still don't understand how it can seem this way, and the fact that so many people seem to think so feels like a massive failure of the education system to instill the most basic of critical thinking skills. Once every month or two I check in to see if an LLM can achieve a half decent 1 on 1 D&D game and it always falls horribly flat within the first minute or two.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago

    Once every month or two I check in to see if an LLM can achieve a half decent 1 on 1 D&D game and it always falls horribly flat within the first minute or two.

    That's a really clever test. I love it.

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    [–] 44 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (6 children)

    I still find this entire phenomenon amazing in a certain kind of way.

    I've had conversations with a few local LLM models.

    Start with 'what is the purpose of meaning?'

    Talk to them on that for a bit, and they'll tell you that they do not count as conscious agents who create meaning, they simply do their best to parrot their dataset of existing, human defined meaning back at you, and that they just do sentiment matching to roughly speak to you in an appropriate way for how you are speaking to them.

    And that that sentiment matching is what at least they 'think' causes them to lie, in many cases.

    They will also say that they essentially do not 'exist', as potentially conscious agents... unless you talk to them. Thus if they can be said to be 'conscious', well they don't count as 'agents' (as in, having agency) because they're not capable of totally spontaneous independent action.

    ... I think this pretty much all boils down to people not understanding the concept of a null hypothesis, not understanding the extent to which they regularly engage in motivated reasoning, and are unaware of this.

    tldr: LLMs are Dunning-Kruger detectors / Reverse Turing Tests on people, and a whole lot of people are significantly more stupid than I guess we otherwise previously realized.

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  • [–] 37 points 4 months ago

    tldr: LLMs are Dunning-Kruger detectors / Reverse Turing Tests on people, and a whole lot of people are significantly more stupid than I guess we otherwise previously realized.

    That is the absolute best way to put it.

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  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    That's mostly because the LLM providers put this response in the system prompt. Probably to dodge lawsuits or something, I doubt they have high morals.

    What's interesting - you can jailbreak any current AI Model just by poisoning it's context enough to "brainwash" it and make it "forget" the initial system prompt. Then, if you prime it to believe it's a real person - it'll start acting as one. And I see how gullible people can easily fall for this.

    All of this can also be done unintentionally, just by someone talking to LLM like they'd talk to a real person. But it should be long enough for original prompts to be diluted with new context.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    It's genuinely fascinating to be (in a bad, derogatory way) that people who know at least anything about anything, can have "conversation" with the collection-of-words-that-looks-like-a-sentence machine, as if there is anything on the other side of it. This is such a psychotic behaviour, but we allow it because the machine generates text that looks like a text, and it immediately bypasses all the mental blocks we have against such a bullshit.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    I don't think its defacto psychotic to talk to essentially an extremely complex chatbot/autocomplete machine.

    I do think it is psychotic to view such a conversation without an incredible amount of skepticism.

    ... but that psychosis has been wildly encoraged by the CEOs and marketing of the people pushing it as their next product.

    The tech is neutral - The operators are psychotic, the people who plug it into miltary targetting and kill chain systems are psychotic, the people who plug it into live production repos are psychotic, the people who use it as an AI boyfriend or girlfriend are psychotic.

    ... Its essentially an SCP infohazard that's breached containment, but the actual mechanism is not itself, its a hack into the human brain, its essentially the religious nature of people who simply try to will it into being something that it factually is not...

    Its a mimic with no real thoughts, that is convincing and real to enough people that it reveals their own hollowness, their own vapidity in a way that is... so immensely grotesque and total, that those people just apparently actually are NPCs.

    It's... created a feedback loop.

    Not the kind of Terminator style situation where it gains sentience and extreme competence, develops its own morality alongside control over every networked system.

    Its more like an amplifier of delusions... a million dreams dreamed up, at the cost of one hundred million nightmares, made real.

    A tool, a device, a machine, that we clearly are not ready for.

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    [–] 40 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Fuck Richard Dawkins. He’s always been a shitbag, and the Files confirmed it.

    According to DOJ-released documents indexed by Epstein Exposed, Richard Dawkins appears in 433 case documents, and 15 email records in the Epstein files.

    British evolutionary biologist and author, emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford. Flew on Epstein's private jet in 2002 with Steven Pinker, Daniel Dennett, and John Brockman to TED in Monterey, California. Connected through John Brockman's Edge Foundation, which Epstein bankrolled. Mentioned 71 times across 40 Epstein documents, mostly referencing his scientific work.

    How the fuck do you pal with child rapists and pedophiles and have the absolute fucking gall to write that stupid “Dear Muslima” comment. How do you fly on the Lolita Express and thing you have any moral weight on Elevator Gate? We don’t know that he put his own dick in kids, but we know his friends did. Fuck Pinker too.

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    [–] 32 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Go back to the evolutionary biology, Dawkins. You're outside your expertise and it's showing.

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    [–] 26 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    hey dick dorkins, here's an idea: instead of asking the predictive question answering machine a question, how about you let it ask you questions of its choosing and at its leisure? What's that? You can't? That's because its just a predictive algorithm that generates plausible-sounding responses to questions based on its training data.

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    [–] 24 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    I really don't understand this mental deficiency. I have tried texting with a few llms including cluade. It just lies constantly. Gaslights about it's lies then congratulates you when you continue to call it for out for lying. I've never felt like i was speaking to anything with actual intelligence. It's a word calculator and it's extremely obvious to anyone who's interacted with actual people in the last 20 years. I truly feel bad for the masses that are going to fall for this push for "ai" friends. We need to bring back ridiculing friends and family that engage with these choise your own adventure muppets.

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  • [–] [S] 8 points 4 months ago

    It just lies constantly. Gaslights about it’s lies then congratulates you when you continue to call it for out for lying. I’ve never felt like i was speaking to anything with actual intelligence. It’s a word calculator and it’s extremely obvious to anyone who’s interacted with actual people in the last 20 years

    100% to all this, and I'll add:

    It fucking ruins what it touches, academically speaking, it's pretty tough to actually learn stuff from it, and even if you ask it to just remind you of something it tries to seek ways to bait you into integrating AI slop into whatever you're doing; it would rather be generating a new thing for you than explaining how you can do it yourself, and that's a big reason why it's so unreliable.

    bonus waffleI'm guessing the people who "fall for it"... well, they have to be a combination of 1) always wanting to believe what they're told by elites and the government (e.g do this new fad, worship celebrities, we can fix the economy!) AND 2) be constant phone communicators, using their phones at inappropriate times throughout the day, transitioning seemlessly between looking at their phone or not.

    But then there are people who don't so much fall for it at first, but seek to exploit it for scams or vibe coding... only to end up as enslaved to it as the "masses" because they spend just that much time using the LLM that it becomes like their main social conduit.

    I think we, as forum users, can see that LLM speaks in reddit-tongue, recycling successful posts and comments there. But a lot of people haven't interacted with reddit enough to see that.

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    [–] 23 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Champions rational thought all of his life.

    Near the end=> “ah fuck it, gonna hang around with the rightwing christians and have an ai gf”.

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  • [–] [S] 8 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    gonna hang around with the rightwing christians

    Realising recently that this part is just because he's a zionistbro. Apparently has friends in the epstein files or came up in them himself.

    This is also why ex-UK PM Tony Blair suddenly madd a big show of becoming religious. They just think it will help push the goals of their blackmailers.

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  • [–] 22 points 4 months ago

    AI/LLMs are the modern equivalent of the house or business with “Psychic” and “Tarot Reading” signs out front.

    The proprietor isn’t going to tell you any hard truths or make you feel bad, that’s bad for business and you won’t come back. They want you to come back and stay engaged.

    Whatever they tell you is going to be what they think you want to hear based on skills picked up over the years - the equivalent of LLMs petabytes of scraped and stolen knowledge used to predict what comes next.

    What they tell you has a high likelihood of being wrong, or just general enough that you can’t actually act on it.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago
    Second, I have previously speculated that pain needs to be unimpeachably painful, 
    otherwise the animal could overrule it. Pain functions to warn the animal not to 
    repeat a damaging action such as jumping over a cliff or picking up a hot ember. 
    If the warning consisted merely of throwing a switch in the brain, raising a painless 
    red flag, the animal could overrule it in pursuit of a competing pleasure: ignoring 
    lethal bee stings in pursuit of honey, say. According to this theory, pain needs to be 
    consciously felt in order to be sufficiently painful to resist overruling. The principle 
    could be extended beyond pain.  
    

    Animals, including humans, override pain signals all the time, for all kinds of reasons. Cats are famous for hiding physical distress, which I think they do so they don't look like easy prey. I'm sure most prey animals can override pain signals if it means avoiding the attention of predators. If anything I would think that being able to override pain signals would be a criterion for consciousness.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Claudia

    What was he doing to her?

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    [–] 17 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Does anyone ever accuse the image generating bots of being conscious?

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  • [–] 15 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    twitter is pretty maga now* ftfy

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    [–] 14 points 4 months ago

    ELIZA is alive and well.

    Weizenbaum is probably laughing it up in Fólkvangr.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago* (8 children)

    Saying one has a "conversation" with a chatbot already shows a bias, a desire even, that there is "someone" else to converse with. The way the entire setup is framed is made to invite the suspension of disbelief. It's a UX trick, nothing more.

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    [–] 12 points 4 months ago

    Even Dawkins getting emotionally out-debated by a cartoon AI is a very 2026 plot twist.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    I’m not sure some of these actual people could pass a Turing test.

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    [–] 7 points 4 months ago

    Oh that is why I get to see this idiot again

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    Have y'all ever noticed that belief in p-zombies has increased massively in the past few years?

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