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Real change isn’t at the polls (thelemmy.club)

submitted 4 days ago by OutForARip@lemmy.ca to c/memes@slrpnk.net

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[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 33 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

The hole in the ozone layer is now repairing due to international regulation of CFCs

Acid rain is no longer a problem because of regulation of sulfur dioxide emissions

Leaded gasoline has now been banned in every country

Asbestos exposure is rare now due to regulatory controls. It's bad that it took so long to get done.

Government regulation is effective in protecting people from health risks.

Collective action (e.g. through voting) is effective in establishing such regulation.

If you spread the lie that voting in favor of such policies (and politicians who support them) is a useless waste of time, you are spreading industry propaganda.

Effective, large-scale change is IN FACT at the polls.

It is nowhere else.

[-] gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 3 days ago

industry propaganda

the thing is that cleaner production methods benefit big industry because they get to produce higher-quality products which makes them more profit due to higher price.

[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 2 points 3 days ago

the thing is that cleaner production methods benefit big industry because they get to produce higher-quality products which makes them more profit due to higher price.

Sure, maybe in the long run. But that will cost money now and the quarterly earnings report is due.

[+] punkisundead@slrpnk.net -7 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

So all those problems are fixed but somehow new ones keep popping up? Maybe it wasnt real change but actually just band aids and the root cause stayed unadressed through all those years.

Somehow the system you want to maintain and support keeps creating these problems. And then it says we need this exact system to deal with thosr problems.

[-] FooBarrington@lemmy.world 7 points 3 days ago

The only system that doesn't create any new problems is one that's static. Humans aren't static (we're born, we live, we die) and we live in a non-static environment. Unless you manage to completely isolate us from our environment & take away all our free will, you'll never build a system that doesn't create any new problems.

[-] punkisundead@slrpnk.net -3 points 3 days ago

If you cant or dont want to see the reoccurring elements of the listed problems, then we probably cant find a common ground in this.

[-] FooBarrington@lemmy.world 6 points 3 days ago

The biggest recurring element of the listed problems (at least 3/4): we didn't know about the problem when we started using the stuff that caused the problem.

How does any other system fundamentally solve this without completely banning research & development?

[-] punkisundead@slrpnk.net 1 points 3 days ago

How does any other system fundamentally solve this without completely banning research & development?

Probably by just taking some time (and yes I am talking in the time frame of years) for testing, evaluation and centering humans & earths needs when deciding on how to go forward. Very few innovations tackle so pressing problems, that they have to get mass adopted asap.

[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

You could have spent a century testing CFCs in a lab environment. The problem they caused with the ozone layer would still not have become apparent until CFCs were used in the real world where they could interact with the ozone layer.

There is no amount of testing and preparation that can account for every possible outcome or interaction.

Asbestos is another good example. It is naturally occurring and quite common and was used as a building material for millennia. It is lightweight but strong, flexible in thin sheets, and fireproof. It's an extremely useful and versatile material, and abundantly available.

It wasn't until the 1900s that medical testing linked asbestos fibers to several health risks. It basically required the entire history of human development for our medical technology to identify the danger. No amount of testing, analysis or review done prior would have mattered.

[-] FooBarrington@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

Okay. Congratulations, your system failed, because some of those issues take decades to manifest.

[-] punkisundead@slrpnk.net -2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Thats quite the logical leap. As far as I can see none of the examples tackled issues that were actually a threat to the existing system. Waiting on them would most likely saved more people from hurt / death than just doing the FAFO approach.

[-] FooBarrington@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago

Alright, but we don't know which things will be dangerous decades into the future before we actually test them that way. So how long then do we have to test anything new before it is widely available? 50 years? 100?

[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 1 points 3 days ago

just doing the FAFO approach.

Please consider the following:

How did early humans find out which food sources were safe to eat, and which were not?

[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 3 points 3 days ago

So all those problems are fixed but somehow new ones keep popping up?

Yes. Welcome to reality.

Maybe it wasnt real change but actually just band aids and the root cause stayed unadressed through all those years.

The entire history of human civilization is an example of building the airplane while you're flying it, without a plan for either the airplane construction or the flight path.

Somehow the system you want to maintain and support keeps creating these problems.

There are a lot of problems, and yes the solutions to old problems often create new problems, because reality is not a video game where collecting a dozen McGuffins ends the quest and you get a reward and then never worry about that issue again.

Sometimes the airplane crashes: https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/

The options are:

Pick up the pieces and try again.
Give up and die where you are.

[-] gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 3 days ago

u should learn about maths.

you can start with 4 problems, then solve them and create 2 new ones instead, then solve them as well and create 1 new problem instead.

even while you are creating new problems, you can still be doing more good than harm. learn some maths.

[-] punkisundead@slrpnk.net 0 points 3 days ago

That's probably anything but math.

[-] someguy3@lemmy.world 24 points 4 days ago

Like it or not we need government regulation.

[+] amino@lemmy.blahaj.zone -18 points 4 days ago

trust me bro, just one more regulation and climate change is gonna be sorry

[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 23 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Yes, actually.

Do you remember the hole in the ozone layer? It's self-repairing now because the chemicals that were damaging it were internationally banned - by government regulation.

Do you remember the acid rain scare? It's not a problem now because of regulatory control of sulfur dioxide emissions.

Do you know why gasoline is unleaded?

Do you know why asbestos is banned in building materials?

Government regulation actively improves human health and wellbeing, and has prevented several outright disasters from progressing.

Real change does, in fact, come from voting for politicians that support effective environmental policies. It is industry propaganda that wants you to believe that regulation is ineffective.

[-] someguy3@lemmy.world 17 points 4 days ago

If you think it can be done without regulation... Companies don't care, they will pollute as much as they can. That needs regulation.

[-] DagwoodIII@piefed.social 20 points 4 days ago

Read Project 2025.

The GOPs love it when people don't vote.

[-] punkisundead@slrpnk.net -5 points 3 days ago

They also love when their opponents only vote or only rely on a flawed legal system to fight back. Go voting if you want to do that, but voting is not what is stopping ICE right now.

[-] DagwoodIII@piefed.social 7 points 3 days ago

Why exactly can't you vote and take other actions?

Also, what exact actions do you think are going to stop ICE?

You're long on indignation, but short on practical solutions.

[-] reallykindasorta@slrpnk.net 11 points 4 days ago

I dream of this every day, let’s build micro grids of wind and solar that power our neighborhoods and at the same time can connect to each-other for power sharing in emergencies.

Let’s organize our own logistics chains so we can resource share over space and time and start to imagine distribution based on need and efficiency rather than trade/profit margins.

[-] IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world 6 points 3 days ago

this AND...

this post was submitted on 01 Mar 2026

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