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muh-terial conditions (thelemmy.club)
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[-] PugJesus@piefed.social 20 points 1 day ago

Explanation: A common argument of Soviet apologists is that everything the Soviet Union did was, in some way, dictated by 'material conditions', and thus necessary for the development of Socialism(tm). Obviously, this line of argument is dubious to begin with, but beggars belief when applied towards the Soviet Union's instances of ethnic cleansing and genocide, which are either denied or so justified.

Anarcho-Communists tend to be more critical of... well, everything. The CNT-FAI was an anarchist trade union which was one of the major players in the Spanish Civil War. After offering amnesty to all criminals to begin with a clean slate, they implemented work/detention camps for criminals convicted by local tribunals and fascist PoWs. Since prison abolitionism is a common cause amongst modern anarchists, they're less willing to go to bat for 'Good Team' when it contradicts their basic moral code, even though the CNT-FAI is one of the most beloved examples of anarchist praxis in the 20th century.

[-] bdonvr -2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

A common argument of Soviet apologists is that everything the Soviet Union did was, in some way, dictated by 'material conditions', and thus necessary for the development of Socialism(tm).

I feel like this is a strawman - or at the least you're talking about someone other than Leninists/MLs (which you've made reference to in the meme). Obviously not everything the USSR did was necessary for the development of Socialism, or it wouldn't have ended the way it did. Nor are material conditions something that forwards Socialism automatically. Material conditions are just what Marxists tend to use to explain/predict why people/societies behave as they do, including under other systems such as capitalism.

[-] PugJesus@piefed.social 8 points 1 day ago

How many MLs do I have to quote saying shit like that before you'll stop bootlicking for them? Give me a firm number.

[-] bdonvr 0 points 1 day ago

I don't think showing me a few examples of internet randos saying something would be a good use of either of our times. I'd have to look into who's posting it and where to judge how much weight I put into each example.

I know that in any ML space I'd have any respect for such ideas wouldn't fly. Actions explained by material conditions aren't a indicator of "goodness" nor is the USSR infallible by any stretch of the imagination.

[-] PugJesus@piefed.social 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I don’t think showing me a few examples of internet randos saying something would be a good use of either of our times.

Yeah, what I fucking thought. "It's a strawman!" becomes "Well, yes, people say it, but it's not IMPORTANT!" Keep bootlicking for your genocidal buddies, I'm sure they'll give you the bullet last. And you'll get to watch all the minorities they slaughter before they murder you. A bonus I'm sure you're thrilled about.

[-] bdonvr 2 points 1 day ago

Would sinding you 100 examples of self proclaimed anarchists saying ridiculous shit be useful to you?

Maybe it'll turn out that 40 are "Anarcho-Capitalist" losers, 30 are outright trolls, and 10 are just weirdos. It's just not useful to anyone to attempt to debate in this way.

I know what I believe, and what I think those I respect believe. Showing me a bunch of examples of randos saying something else just isn't doing much.

[-] PugJesus@piefed.social 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Would sinding you 100 examples of self proclaimed anarchists saying ridiculous shit be useful to you?

It would call into question me claiming something was a 'strawman' if you demonstrated that it was a legitimately held position from members of a group, yes. Sorry that you're incapable of parsing that.

Maybe it’ll turn out that 40 are “Anarcho-Capitalist” losers, 30 are outright trolls, and 10 are just weirdos. It’s just not useful to anyone to attempt to debate in this way.

I can quote some big names if you prefer. But of course, you'd find any reason to continue your bootlicking for genocide than acknowledge that, either.

I know what I believe,

Yeah, in camps. Death camps, work camps, and international camps.

[-] themoken@startrek.website 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I am an anarchist, but prison is something that's really hard to abolish entirely. Yes, you can eliminate huge amounts of "criminal" behavior by reorganizing society to be more just and less brutal, and I believe incarceration should be incredibly rare compared to other forms of correction repairing ones relationship with the community.

But in practice, without some form of incarceration, how do you deal with people who are acting against your society, and also have no stake in it? You can't force them to make reparations, and if you exile them, they just go back to actively work against you.

What should the CNT-FAI have done with fascist POWs instead?

[-] PugJesus@piefed.social 7 points 1 day ago

I don't disagree; I wouldn't even count myself as an anarchist. The point is the difference in willingness to recognize policy differences of one's "team" with one's own moral code.

[-] themoken@startrek.website 5 points 1 day ago

Sure, I didn't mean to post this at you or anything, the topic is just something I wrestle with on occasion and don't really have a better answer for.

[-] hypna@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago

Oh shit you got me talking political theory. Here we go...

One thing I've observed when people discuss anarchist theory or practice is that it is frequently imbued with a radical absolutism that isn't applied to other political theories. It's common to see people asking how the world could work without any rules, or punishments, or coercion? You almost never encounter honest questions of a similar type for, say, socialism, e.g. how will I ever get anything done if I need the state to plan everything I do? Or the capitalist case, how would the world work if everything is someone else's property? No serious socialist believes the state should plan everything. No serious capitalist believes that all things should be private property for profit. No serious anarchist believes that the world can be free of all regulation.

So why is this? I have a two part theory. When the socialist revolutions of the late 19th and early 20th centuries were unfolding, the socialist camp split between authoritarian and anarchist socialists. In the end the authoritarians (communists) won that conflict and expelled the anarchists. This left the world with two camps, the communists, championed by the Soviet Union, and the capitalists, championed by the United States. Both camps considered anarchists villainous enemies, and both camps spent the next 50+ years producing voluminous propaganda extolling their own virtues, and denigrating their enemies. This meant that anarchists were being dunked on by two super powers for most of the 20th century without anyone of even remotely similar influence to respond. As a result basically everyone's understanding of anarchism is a caricature produced by anarchism's opponents.

The second part of this theory is the fact that there really are a lot of self-described anarchists who adhere to this cartoon version of anarchism! I find this harder to explain. Perhaps it is that anarchism as an active political force was effectively destroyed during this period, and today's anarchists are in some significant part the people who were exposed to the cartoon anarchism propaganda, and thought, hey I like that. It could be that political anarchism has no influence and thus no responsibility to achieve anything, so why not indulge in ideological purity contests. I don't really know.

This bums me out, because I think practical anarchist theory has a lot to like. Not a theory that says I may do whatever I want whenever I want, and anything which impinges on that is oppression. Rather one that says that imbalanced power relations are necessary and sufficient for exploitation and oppression, and so we should build political structures that distribute power as broadly as possible. That we should minimize hierarchy and coercion to enable people to spontaneously organize to solve problems.

And when spontaneous organization isn't sufficient for the problem, an anarchism that has the practical humility to apply different techniques. Utopia is a direction, not a destination.

[-] PugJesus@piefed.social 4 points 1 day ago

Of course, I understand completely!

that's a genuinely good question. check out what Chiapas or Rojava did/do instead.

mostly based on mediation, but their worst punishment is exile, which basically means the society at large does not consent to interact with them. which means they have to find a new community where news of their crimes will follow them. or end up living in solitary confinement in the wilderness, which might be a death sentence.

although in a war, you do not want to arbitrarily return prisoners of war. let alone let them go free. and even though they were fash, killing POW is a war crime.

this post was submitted on 25 Feb 2026
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