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[–] 195 points 11 months ago (1 child)

Cloudflare and "challenging the status quo" in the same phrase ?

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  • [–] 75 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Well, the browser status quo. I guess they want their own Chrome.

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  • [–] 64 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Its sponsorship only of an open source browser, with no telemetry, advertising, crypto, etc, etc built in.

    Sponsors get listed as sponsors, thats it.

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  • [–] 20 points 11 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago (14 children)

    So when they do just fork it?

    I likely won't touch it anyway, but it is fully open source, so it can be forked easily. With the transition to Swift I suspect there would be plenty of devs who could take things forward if they wanted to.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    If you look at history, Google did the opposite with Chrome, they forked an open source browser and turned it into the world's most used.
    I guess we'll see.

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago

    Thats google though, with the added ability to put it direct into an extremely common OS (Android). With ladybird, you've got an apparent neocon and 3 years currently planned for a GA release (2028). Its future is already pretty uncertain regardless of sponsorship.

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  • [–] 73 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    Cloudflare has announced its sponsorship of the Ladybird browser, an independent (still-in-development) open-source initiative

    Is it still independent?

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  • [–] 85 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Yes, and their donations are limited to 100k a year per corporation/organization, so there cant be a company who comes, donates 20million and then tries to gain control of them through money

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  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I think It's on their charter that no matter how much corporate money they'll get they'll never accept any outside influence just the same. The donators are amply warned to not expect anything other than development as usual or faster.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    People always imagine this as "I will pay you $100 to kick the puppy" and of course they would never.

    But what actually happens is that you have a long-term donor. You rely on their help (they're paying for you to be able to hire a nice college intern who's really smart and has been fun to have on the project). They never tell you what to do so you see them as more of a friend than anything else. It's perfectly normal to get some lunch with friends and talk. You're stuck on some problems and they have some good connections that help you out. That might even be worth more than $100k, but it's not money at all so it's OK that they're helping you like this. They also talk you up, which is like free advertising except you didn't ask for it so that also doesn't count. Anyway, at some of the lunches they're telling you about what's going on with them and there's some problems they're dealing with that you could help with. They don't ask for help, of course, because they know you're independent. But being independent means it's OK for you to do what you want. Even help a friend out who didn't ask for help so they're not influencing you...

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    [–] 63 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    This is very encouraging:

    Ladybird uses a new browser engine called LibWeb that is being created from scratch by the development team.

    Browsers that rely on Chromium / Blink rely on Google. Firefox relies on Google for its funding, so any browser based on Gecko relies on Google. If they can make a browser engine that has rough feature parity with Chromium but doesn''t rely on Google that's very healthy for the web.

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  • [–] 15 points 11 months ago (11 children)

    Ironically, we already had that - Microsoft's first version of Edge was using their own engine. On release, it had the highest W3C compatibility score.

    Google started shitting on it (including things like serving clear HTML version of Gmail because "the browser is outdated" if it detected the Edge user agent) and massive self-delusion campaigns of "Edge is just Internet Explorer" eventually killed the thing and forced MS to switch to Chromium.

    I have Ladybird installed and I check it out every now and then, but I honestly doubt that a bunch of random developers will succeed where Microsoft failed. Unless Cloudflare somehow chips in and forces Google's hand into compatibility, but I don't know if even they are big enough to do that.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

    Personally, I think if the engine was closed source, then we didn't in fact "had that". Maybe Microsoft had it, not us.

    What makes things like chromium, firefox and webkit actual ecosystems is that they at least have an open source basis. Edge isn't an ecosystem, it's a black box. We don't even know whether it's true or not that it was its own thing or just they sneakily used bits and pieces of chromium from the start anyway.

    User Agent checks is the easiest thing to overcome. Had edge's engine been open source we would have had spins of it resolving the issue within hours. There are many examples of "random developers" succeeding where big companies tied by business strategies (I bet they had business reasons to keep a distinctive user agent) didn't, to the point that the web runs on servers using FOSS software.

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  • [–] [S] 11 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    Firefox relies on Google for its funding, so any browser based on Gecko relies on Google

    Google introduced Extension manifest v3 to effectively to kill/handicap AdBlock extensions.

    Mozilla, though getting funding from Google to make google its default search engine, officially decided to keep supporting Manifest v2.

    Adblockers are direct challenge to Alphabet’s ad revenue which is still their biggest cash cow.

    That speaks a valume about how much control google has on Mozilla decision making process.

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

    I just wanna say that we have Webkit. After Google moved over to Blink Webkit has not stopped development.. and it even has multiple big names behind it (like Apple, but also Valve partnered with WebkitGtk maintainers, and many devices like Amazon's Kindle are heavily invested on it) so it's not gonna go away anytime soon. Specially with Safari being the second most used browser on the web, right after chrome and several times more users than Firefox.

    On Linux we have some browsers making use of Webkit (like Epiphany, Gnome's default browser) that are thus independent from Google or even Mozilla. I'm not sure if there's any browser like that for Windows though.

    There's also Netsurf, they also have their own rendering libraries, but development for it is super slow, I've been following them for a couple decades and they still haven't got a stable javascript engine, so it only works for the most basic of websites. The plus side is that it's very light on resources, though.

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    [–] 27 points 11 months ago

    challenge the status quo by partnering with the status quo...

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  • [–] 16 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    You are not much challenging the status quo by partnering up with the NSA.

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    [–] 16 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Challenge the status quo in a Snowpiercer fashion.

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    [–] 14 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Still, it’s hard to understand why Cloudflare chose to back exactly Omarchy.

    Maybe the developers in Cloudflare use it? Also weird because Omarchy's default browser is Chromium I think. The webpage didn't list the default browser, so not sure about that.

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  • [–] 24 points 11 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 33 points 11 months ago (15 children)

    Anyway, Omarchy and Ladybird are both run by fascists. Omarchy makes this pretty obvious from the outset – on the home page the big YouTube poster image prominently features SuperGrok, which is a pathetically transparent dog-whistle to signal alliance with Elon Musk’s fascist politics. Omarchy is the pet project of David Heinemeier Hansson, aka DHH, who is well known as a rich fascist weirdo.2 One need only consult his blog to browse his weird, racist views on immigration, fat-shaming objections to diverse representation, vaguely anti-feminist/homophobic/rapey rants on consent, and, recently, tone-policing antifascists who celebrate the death of notable fascist Charlie Kirk.

    Speaking of tributes to Charlie Kirk, that brings us to Andreas Kling, the project lead for Ladybird, who tweeted on the occasion of his assassination:

    RIP Charlie Kirk

    I hope many more debate nerds carry on his quest to engage young people with words, not fists.

    – @awesomekling

    I was not prepared to learn these things today.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago* (4 children)

    most people outside the us have never heard any of kirk's talking points. if you only know that he is a conservative debater and use your normal (non-us) definition of "conservative", then "people should not die for their opinions" is not a controversial take. i'm not saying that's what's happened here but it's the most likely situation considering klings history.

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  • [+] 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (4 children)
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    [–] 11 points 11 months ago* (22 children)

    How much you want to bet Cloudflare went to them and was like 'hey either work for (sorry, "with") us or we declare you a "suspicious" traffic source and block you.'

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    [–] 10 points 11 months ago

    pack it up folks, we've been compromised

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago

    Ah yes, of course the status quo challenges the status quo!

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I've seen a lot of Ladybird news recently. Let me know when I can actually try using it.

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    [–] 9 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Giving how apple adjacent the project is I have never had much faith in it being able to truly become an alternative to firefox.

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    [–] 8 points 11 months ago

    Straight outta Onion

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