the full line being "Give us today our epiousion bread"

Today, most scholars reject the translation of epiousion as meaning daily. The word daily only has a weak connection to any proposed etymologies for epiousion. Moreover, all other instances of "daily" in the English New Testament translate hemera (ἡμέρα, "day"), which does not appear in this usage.[1][2] Because there are several other Greek words based on hemera that mean daily, no reason is apparent to use such an obscure word as epiousion.[4] The daily translation also makes the term redundant, with "this day" already making clear the bread is for the current day.[21]

i don't think wikipedia mentions this but it has 'pious' in the middle

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[+] 166 points 3 years ago (27 children)
  • [–] 94 points 3 years ago (10 children)

    But you don't understand! This translation was divinely inspired! Every other one is an act of heresy and blasphemy!

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  • [–] 32 points 3 years ago (8 children)

    Catholics go one step further. Both the translation and the tradition of interpreting the translation is divinely inspired. Protestants sometimes vaguely point to something like that but most realize that if they follow the logic train of sacred tradition they should be Catholic or Orthodox.

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  • [–] 21 points 3 years ago* (4 children)

    The book was produced by the tradition. If the tradition is junk, then why would the book not be junk too?

    This is one thing that atheists often get wrong about Catholicism. Catholics don't believe sola scriptura, the Protestant principle that all Christian tradition is to be rooted in the text of the Bible. Thus, "Bible contradictions" and the like are not rebuttals to Catholic views the way they are to "fundamentalist" Protestant views.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 years ago

    Evangelicals are all about that inspired, literal, complete, and inerrant word of God stuff. 99% of all evangelical churches have that as a mission statement on their website.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Unless they realize that each new interpretation is Divinely inspired. In which case the most recent one is the truest, Tradition is dead, and also the Divine changes Her mind a lot.

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  • [–] 20 points 3 years ago (8 children)

    It's a two-thousand-year-long multilingual game of Telephone. How much is it even possible is left from what was originally written? (And none of it contemporary to when it supposedly happened.)

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    [–] 137 points 3 years ago (4 children)

    Greek guy here.

    Επιούσιος (e-pi-u-si-os) is a composite word (you can make an astronomical number of composite words in Greek if you want to express a new concept, such as tele-phone) and in this sentence it means that which will nourish us for the day. So daily is quite fitting here.

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  • [–] 42 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    So it's more like "our day's worth of bread" than "the bread we eat every day"?

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  • [–] 15 points 3 years ago

    If the word was missing from the sentence, then it could be translated as "Give us today our bread and forgive our sins.....".

    Instead, with the word added, it can be translated as "Give us today the bread we need for the day and forgive our sins..... ".

    I guess the significance of the word is in not being greedy and asking from God only what you really need instead of what is "owed" to you?

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  • [–] 72 points 3 years ago (8 children)

    epiousion was greek for sliced

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  • [–] 46 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    I'm fluently bilingual in English and Spanish, and I grew up going to a Spanish speaking Presbyterian church. The kids in my high school taught me that "pan" (the spanish word for "bread") was slang for "pussy", so everytime my grandpa (the pastor) recited the Lord's prayer, I always had a huge smile on my face thinking about him asking God to give us our daily allowance of pussy.

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    [–] 40 points 3 years ago

    Also known by one of the most badass-sounding terms in lexicography: the HAPAX LEGOMENON

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  • [–] 29 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    I think it means "cromulent".

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    [–] 26 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    I can't argue the classical Greek etymology, but the argument about redundancy flies in the face how I was taught the Lord's prayer. "Give us this day our daily bread" ~= "Give us our bread today as you do every day".

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  • [–] 26 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Now it occurs in a post on lemmy

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  • [–] 21 points 3 years ago (6 children)

    I have only this moment realised that the prayer is referencing the xtian communion giving of bread symbolism, and not just randomly demanding food as if the writer was hungry

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  • [–] 11 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    Is it, though? Or is it saying "Give us our basic staple needs"? It would be useful if a theologian could chip in on the dates, but I suspect this prayer predates bready communion

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  • [–] 6 points 3 years ago

    From my brief and poorly remembered Christian education, there were at least 3 occasions where the Big J handed out food and drink, and made explicit connection between his god powers, and the catering. So the idea was there in some form from at least the writing of the gospels. But yeah, it would be good to hear from someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    Historically? All of this is at least disputed. Within the church canon? "[Jesus] broke the bread, gave it to his disciples and said 'Take this, all of you and eat it, for it is my body, which will be given up for you.' When [the last] supper had ended he took the cup. Again he gave thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples and said 'Take this, all of you, and drink from it. For it is my blood, the blood of the new covenant which will be shed for you and for all so that sin may be forgiven."

    Theologically speaking it's not a matter of debate at all that communion predates Christ's death and therefore the founding of the Church or the establishment of the Lord's prayer.

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    [–] 18 points 3 years ago (9 children)

    If I remember correctly, there's a group of scholars that translate it as "appropriate."

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  • [–] 31 points 3 years ago* (5 children)

    Fun story! They came to that conclusion because they discovered a text which had what they believed was another very similar word ("epiousi") that, in context, meant "necessary" or "enough for now." That text was a shopping list.

    Then the text got lost for a long time, and when they found it again, new eyes on it realized that they'd misread the word, so it was back to square one.

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    [–] 18 points 3 years ago

    Let me tell you, 10 year old me in catholic school really thought he was on to some comedy gold when he realized this day and daily was some confusing shit.

    Nobody ever laughed. Turned out, I'm not really funny.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 years ago (5 children)

    The daily translation also makes the term redundant, with "this day" already making clear the bread is for the current day

    Yes, but it doesn't make it clear that it is something you receive every day. If I say "give us our pizza today" it doesn't imply that I have a daily pizza party (I don't, just a silly example).

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    [–] 12 points 3 years ago

    I think I'll stick to 'fresh' or 'sourdough' as alternatives from now on

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