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[–] 222 points 2 years ago* (23 children)

https://nmn.gl/blog/ai-illiterate-programmers

Relevant quote

Every time we let AI solve a problem we could’ve solved ourselves, we’re trading long-term understanding for short-term productivity. We’re optimizing for today’s commit at the cost of tomorrow’s ability.

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  • [–] 35 points 2 years ago* (7 children)

    I like the sentiment of the article; however this quote really rubs me the wrong way:

    I’m not suggesting we abandon AI tools—that ship has sailed.

    Why would that ship have sailed? No one is forcing you to use an LLM. If, as the article supposes, using an LLM is detrimental, and it's possible to start having days where you don't use an LLM, then what's stopping you from increasing the frequency of those days until you're not using an LLM at all?

    I personally don't interact with any LLMs, neither at work or at home, and I don't have any issue getting work done. Yeah there was a decently long ramp-up period — maybe about 6 months — when I started on ny current project at work where it was more learning than doing; but now I feel like I know the codebase well enough to approach any problem I come up against. I've even debugged USB driver stuff, and, while it took a lot of research and reading USB specs, I was able to figure it out without any input from an LLM.

    Maybe it's just because I've never bought into the hype; I just don't see how people have such a high respect for LLMs. I'm of the opinion that using an LLM has potential only as a truly last resort — and even then will likely not be useful.

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    [+] 113 points 2 years ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)
  • [–] 135 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    If there's no code completion, I can tell you even people who's been doing coding as a job for years aren't going to write it correctly from memory. Because we're not being paid to memorize this shit, we're being paid to solve problems optimally.

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    [–] 112 points 2 years ago (32 children)

    Yeah fake. No way you can get 90%+ using chatGPT without understanding code. LLMs barf out so much nonsense when it comes to code. You have to correct it frequently to make it spit out working code.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 years ago

    If we're talking about freshman CS 101, where every assignment is the same year-over-year and it's all machine graded, yes, 90% is definitely possible because an LLM can essentially act as a database of all problems and all solutions. A grad student TA can probably see through his "explanations", but they're probably tired from their endless stack of work, so why bother?

    If we're talking about a 400 level CS class, this kid's screwed and even someone who's mastered the fundamentals will struggle through advanced algorithms and reconciling math ideas with hands-on-keyboard software.

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    [–] 105 points 2 years ago (2 children)
  • [–] 91 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    generate code, memorize how it works, explain it to profs like I know my shit.

    ChatGPT was just his magic feather all along.

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  • [–] 84 points 2 years ago (10 children)

    The bullshit is that anon wouldn't be fsked at all.

    If anon actually used ChatGPT to generate some code, memorize it, understand it well enough to explain it to a professor, and get a 90%, congratulations, that's called "studying".

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    [–] 77 points 2 years ago (26 children)

    Why would you sign up to college to willfully learn nothing

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  • [–] 44 points 2 years ago* (4 children)

    My Java classes at uni:

    Here's a piece of code that does nothing. Make it do nothing, but in compliance with this design pattern.

    When I say it did nothing, I mean it had literally empty function bodies.

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  • [–] 25 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

    Yeah that's object oriented programming and interfaces. It's shit to teach people without a practical example but it's a completely passable way to do OOP in industry, you start by writing interfaces to structure your program and fill in the implementation later.

    Now, is it a good practice? Probably not, imo software design is impossible to get right without iteration, but people still use this method... good to understand why it sucks

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  • [–] 19 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    A lot of kids fresh out of highschool are pressured into going to college right away. Its the societal norm for some fucking reason.

    Give these kids a break and let them go when they're really ready. Personally I sat around for a year and a half before I felt like "fuck, this is boring lets go learn something now". If i had gone to college straight from highschool I would've flunked out and just wasted all that money for nothing.

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    [–] 54 points 2 years ago (9 children)

    This person is LARPing as a CS major on 4chan

    It's not possible to write functional code without understanding it, even with ChatGPT's help.

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    [–] 51 points 2 years ago (15 children)

    I don't think you can memorize how code works enough to explain it and not learn codding.

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  • [–] 24 points 2 years ago (8 children)

    It's super easy to learn how algorithms and what not work without knowing the syntax of a language. I can tell you how a binary search tree works, but I have no clue how to code it in Java because I've never used Java.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I'm a full stack polyglot and tbh I couldn't program in some languages without reference docs / LLM even though I ship production code in those language all the time. Memorizing all of the function and method names and all of the syntax/design pattern stuff is pretty hard especially when it's not really needed in contemporary dev.

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    [–] 35 points 2 years ago* (6 children)

    isn't it kinda dumb to have coding exams that aren't open book? if you don't understand the material, on a well-designed test you'll run out of time even with access to the entire internet

    when in the hell would you ever be coding IRL without access to language documentation and the internet? isn't the point of a class to prepare you for actual coding you'll be doing in the future?

    disclaimer did not major in CS. but did have a lot of open book tests—failed when I should have failed because I didn't study enough, and passed when I should have passed because the familiarity with the material is what allows you to find your references fast enough to complete the test

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  • [–] 12 points 2 years ago

    Assignments involved actual coding but exams were generally pen and paper when I got my degree. If a question involved coding, they were just looking for a general understanding and didn't nitpick syntax. The "language" used was more of a c++-like pseudocode than any real specific language.

    ChatGPT could probably do well on such exams because making up functions is fair game, as long as it doesn't trivialize the question and demonstrates an overall understanding.

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    [–] 30 points 2 years ago

    Bro just sneak to the bathroom and use chatgpt on your phone like everyone else does

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  • [–] 27 points 2 years ago* (7 children)

    pay for school

    do anything to avoid actually learning

    Why tho?

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    [+] 22 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (5 children)
  • [–] 21 points 2 years ago*

    Brainless GPT coding is becoming a new norm on uni.

    Even if I get the code via Chat GPT I try to understand what it does. How you gonna maintain these hundreds of lines if you dont know how does it work?

    Not to mention, you won't cheat out your way on recruitment meeting.

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  • [–] 17 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    Any competent modern IDE or compiler will help you find syntax mistakes. Knowing the concepts is way more important.

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    [–] 17 points 2 years ago

    Now imagine how it'll feel in interviews

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  • [–] 17 points 2 years ago

    Open the browser in one VM. Open chatgpt in another VM.

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  • [+] 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)
    [–] 15 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    He should be grateful. I hear programming interviews are pretty similar, as in the employer provides the code, and will pretty much watch you work it in some cases. Rather be embarrassed now than interview time. I'm honestly impressed he went the entire time memorizing the code enough to be able to explain it, and picked up nada.

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    [–] 11 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Unless they're being physically watched or had their phone sequestered away, they could just pull it up on a phone browser and type it out into the computer. But if they want to be a programmer they really should learn how to code.

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