this post was submitted on 18 Oct 2024

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Even Bernie didn't vote third party when it counted. (lemmy.world)

submitted 23 hours ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

in the first 3.5 years of the question cycle

We are literally always in an election cycle this country is so fucked up

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

That's how cycles work, lol.

We're always in every cycle.

It's in the root of the word cycle. Greek word kuklos and the Latin word cyclus, both of which mean "circle".

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 hours ago

I love me a good piece of pedantry. Technically correct, the best kind of correct.

[+] [email protected] -8 points 3 hours ago (3 children)

Here goes:

PSL is running Claudia de la Cruz on a platform of Palestinian statehood and an end to arms shipments to israel.

Here’s your chance to not be like the ops meme.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Just say you want Trump to win. No need to hide it.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Why would I say that? I’m literally advocating people support a party running against trump.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 hour ago

It’s pretty safe to say everyone is aware of what you’re advocating for here.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

Under no circumstances should anyone with a functioning brain consider this as a good idea. It’s a sacrificed vote. A worthless ceremonial attempt to “protest” by casting a vote for someone that has a barely above zero chance to win.

It’s nothing more that pageantry and it’s irresponsible.

And there is probably no one that would in good faith, ask you vote for this person that isn’t trying to siphon votes from Harris.

DO NOT LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE.

[+] [email protected] -6 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

Votes aren’t sacrificed, they’re cast and counted. The count is public so you know they aren’t tossed into a pit after their hearts are carved out with an obsidian knife or burned on a stake or whatever.

I think the description of pageantry probably isn’t one to invoke when we’re staring down the barrel of three weeks of constant detailed media coverage focused on every detail.

I also think it’s pretty vile to describe voting for a party opposed to genocide as irresponsible. Irresponsible to whomst exactly?

A vote isn’t ceremonial or protest (and if it were protest it would be a lot cooler!).

I just want to take a minute to examine the protest vote rhetoric for a second. People only deploy it to imply that a vote they name protest is not valuable, not effective, immature and other pejoratives.

Why would anyone listen to the input of a person who looked at the history of the last twenty years or even the last century and not just thought “yeah, that’s immature, ineffective and worthless” but then tried to convince the people who are voting third party, overwhelmingly young people, of it?

I am literally asking anyone who would vote for either of the two major parties or a third party to consider the party for socialism and liberation in good faith. I don’t care who it siphons votes from. If a party thinks they need third party voters then they can adopt third party platforms.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 57 minutes ago

I don’t care who it siphons votes from.

This obvious admission of entitlement says everything about how you have nothing to lose in this election, and therefore have no one’s best interest in mind aside from your own.

That is of course if we are to even assume that you aren’t here to support a spoiler and disrupt an election.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Gloria La Riva, PSL’s 2020 presidential candidate, got a total of 85,623 nationally.

Do you think Claudia de la Cruz will beat that?

Does she have a path to presidency?

Harris or Trump will win and to think anyone else has a chance at this stage of the game is delusional.

[+] [email protected] -9 points 2 hours ago (2 children)

She can win if you vote for her.

Really, I think you’d have a really good point if winning were all that mattered.

Election turnout is used to determine all kinds of stuff like funding, ballot presence, event eligibility, media coverage and it does a lot for public awareness.

Plenty of consultants, analysts and workers from the two major parties themselves examine third party turnout when triangulating their platforms and policies.

I don’t think the idea that only candidates who are already in a position to win the presidency should be considered is a very good tack. It’s really hard to defend, relies on some easily disproven misconceptions about the electoral system and if you succeed it just drives people who would vote away from voting at all.

Maybe try a different line of reasoning?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

The time to show support for third parties was months ago. Not less than a month from an election

No one in good faith remains to support any third party. It’s mathematically and empirically known there no third party has a remote chance to ever win at this point.

You appear to me- to be here in bad faith and only in bad faith to disrupt an election.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 hours ago

Oh the time to work towards the change I want to see in my country is months ago? Back then people were saying it was years ago. Years ago people were telling me the same as you, I should have been at it months ago.

I’ve been doing the same thing that whole time.

The best time to support party for socialism and liberation was months ago, the second best time is now.

I explained in my comment that you replied to how there’s so much more than winning to take into account. Surely you aren’t just gonna accuse me of bad faith actions after you ignore my ideas? That would almost be like arguing in img_megamind.jpg bad faith.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Wouldn’t it make more sense to vote for the better of the two presidential nominees then vote all PSL down ballot where they can make real change?

Why wouldn’t that work?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

If I cared more about supporting the democrat or republican policies than about building an alternative, yes.

Of course, I came to the conclusion that I didn’t want to support republican or democrat policies and don’t trust the democrats to do what they campaign on almost a decade and a half ago, so personally I would never do that.

And I’m here voicing support for a third party which has a platform wildly different than the republicans and democrats so it’s pretty clear I don’t want to support republican and democrat policies at all.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

then vote all PSL down ballot where they can make real change? Why wouldn’t that work?

You kind of clumsily skipped over the main question here.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (2 children)

I promise you I didn’t.

I don’t want to support republican or democrat policies.

Voting for a candidate who is running at the head of either of those parties tickets would be supporting their policies and platforms.

So no, that wouldn’t work.

Don’t worry, I’m gonna vote party for socialism and liberation wherever I can on the ballot too and my distaste for the two major parties softens the more localized the race is, both because the outcomes at stake are unique and the candidates are less doctrinaire.

But no, I’m not gonna vote for a democrat or republican for president but then put the party for socialism and liberation in downticket.

E: wait a minute, if you really thought the down ballot races were what mattered wouldn’t you be positing that I vote democrat at the local level?

What gives? Which one matters, president or everything underneath it?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

To address your edit, both the republican and democrat parties are already built.

Have been for a couple years.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

As I said above, I have no interest in supporting republican or democrat policies. The existence and age of genocidal options doesn’t change my aversion to them.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Again, you’re skipping the question and throwing out meaningless catchphrases.

Why would I want to build parties that are already built when my goal is to topple the existing ones and replace them with ones that are younger and hungrier for change?

Farting in the wind by voting a third party presidential candidate isn’t going to do that.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say here but i directly answered why I wouldn’t vote for a democrat at the top of the ticket. Because I don’t support their policy positions.

What are the meaningless catchphrases?

What did you mean by your sentence in the middle there about building parties? I read it a few different times but couldn’t tell what you were trying to say.

As I said before, way up at the top of our replies, there are real effects that come from voting for a third party candidate, although I appreciate the phrasing given out usernames.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 hour ago

Voting third party down ballot builds third parties.

Democrats and Republicans have already built their parties so why would you need to help build them?

Voting for a presidential candidate is a choice, Trump or Harris directly or indirectly.

Voting down ballot is voting for change.

Please limit the amount of questions per comment, it’s hard to keep it all straight and feels like gish galloping.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

But that isn’t building a party.

That’s like building a skyscraper by putting together the top floor first.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

I just told you explicitly that I’m going to vote for party for socialism and liberation in every race they’re running a candidate in.

Wouldn’t wouldn’t not voting for their presidential candidate be like not putting a roof on your skyscraper?

And I don’t fault you for not catching my edit, but what’s the deal with claiming that the non presidential stuff is what really matters? If that’s true then why do you care who I cast a ballot for in the presidential race?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

I already responded to that, you edited your comment after I replied.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago

I just saw, no harm meant by it :)

[–] [email protected] 20 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Not sure how to tell you this, but the right wing has, does, and will target ANY Democratic (or 3rd party) candidate that poses a realistic chance of beating them in the presidential election. The right wing doesn't want or know how to govern, they just want to control, so they attack those that are qualified to govern.

Russia and China support and amplify unserious 3rd party candidates like Stein and RFK Jr with the support of the Republicans, because without splitting the left's votes, the Republicans would be a powerless minority

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

It's just naive in my opinion. They say they care so much about Palestine, but refuse to sit down, grow up, and face our current political reality. I would love to have ranked voting, or even just a valid third party choice, but that is not going to happen in the next 3 weeks. And we are still reeling from the repercussions of the last Trump Term. They'll continue to stack government and courts with the same backwards thinkers to make progress, if any, even harder. They'll continue to make life harder and more dangerous for not even just minorities, but just anyone who's not able to buy their way out of it.

But it doesn't matter! They're both the same! There is no way Trump could be worse. Because while Palestinians watch Israel's interpretation of "just end it" with out a cease fire, they'll die with the knowledge that, somewhere, in another country, a woman is bleeding out in the parking lot because some people wanted to make a point. Oh, boy, won't that be great? /s

[–] [email protected] 27 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

IMO anyone who argues to vote third party right now is a Russian troll.

Screenshot_20241018-213003_Firefox

[–] [email protected] 8 points 14 hours ago

Well I wouldn't disagree with out of hand but I would want to see your research on that.

[–] [email protected] 69 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (21 children)

A third party has literally no chance to win in our system, and nobody gives a single fuck about the miniscule amount of votes they do get - you're not moving any metrics, or sending any messages, or taking any stands. All you're doing is helping the worse option win.

So, if you truly hate Palestinians, then by all means vote Stein. If you want to see Ukraine taken over, then please vote Stein. If you want to see our country start murdering every version of queer people, then you really should vote Stein. That's all you're going to get for it.

Whether you like to see the truth or not, a vote for a third party is still a vote for genocide.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

And abstaining a vote is... still a vote for genocide. People need to get over this desire to make believe that voting makes them complicit in something and instead realize that it's a cold and rational duty. Vote for the best outcome possible. What you do the remaining 364 days of the year will decide your complicity.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 19 hours ago (6 children)

I'll keep saying it: This is not a Mexican standoff you can win because the Dems have an out: the center voter. If you want the Dems to stop going center, they have to win all 3 houses consistently. They've had all 3 for only 4 of the last 24 years.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Also that one time, if I recall correctly, had a bunch of Dems who were "pro-life" and vaguely Dem to get votes but not really progressive at all.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 14 hours ago

"Blue Dogs". 2010 and 2012 erased a lot of them.

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