this post was submitted on 18 Apr 2024
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Leftist Infighting: A community dedicated to allowing leftists to vent their frustrations

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The purpose of this community is sort of a "work out your frustrations by letting it all out" where different leftist tendencies can vent their frustrations with one another and more assertively and directly challenge one another. Hostility is allowed, but any racist, fascist, or reactionary crap wont be tolerated, nor will explicit threats.

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cross-posted from: https://hexbear.net/post/2331989

I don’t really think he knows this site’s culture at all. No one is dissuading people from reading theory lol

Yey or ney for him?

As someone said in the post

As far as I can tell, he's a guy who spends all his time posting about how all leftists do is post.

~~And this ain't the first time, Roderick's a bit terminally online, arguing against other progressives like JT (Second Thought) and Michael Hudson....~~

Edit:

Ok I've made a right-deviationist mistake in saying that Michael Hudson is a progressive, and indirectly agreeing with the views of the former....

I've not investigated into JT's MMT videos nor looked carefully into Hudson (I thought he was also against capitalism, turns out, only finance and feudalism..., just cares for industrial capitalism)

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

And this ain’t the first time, Roderick’s a bit terminally online, arguing against other based progressive like JT (Second Thought) and Michael Hudson…

Why shouldn't he? Hudson's following reproduces Industrial Capitalist apologia in the same way that fed Social Chauvinism in Europe prior to WW1 (and during the height of Imperialism's African carve). I can see the consequences of Hudson in the patsoc space. Second Thought's video on MMT was uncritical and like Hudson reproduces petty booj cope about "the economy" and reform.

Hudson and ST are Marxist educators, they should be criticized so that their performance at that role can improve. If we are giving these people a living as revolutionary educators, shouldn't they be held to the highest standards?

The western left has a deep cultural lack of seriousness (I wonder why that is?). Memes and jokes are fine but bigotry and anti-intellectualism shouldn't be passed off as jokes to avoid criticism.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I like Roderic. He reminds us (communists) that it's not all memes and fun, there's serious effort that needs to be made and the course this effort should take is found in theory.

Yes you could say he's sometimes a bit too harsh in his criticism, but he also makes tons of good points and we need people like him too, with or without their flaws. Nobody's perfect. He's harsh, but he's not insulting (that I've seen) and in the end he does it to reach a better understanding of the matter with the people he struggles with. It took me a while in my life to detach from "neutral language criticism" and not see it as harsh criticism because it didn't have a word of praise in it (like "you're partly correct" or "you're on the right track but"). This is what he does, is neutral criticism. He doesn't go out of his way to insult or demean you but makes you see his point.

He spends a lot of time on Twitter, sure why not, but he's also one of the only people there that will talk to you in DMs and answer your questions there, and even if you have 2 followers -- many do not bother to talk to you either because they have too many notifications (he has a big account so I'm sure he has the notifs too) or because you don't have followers. Also anyone can have a Twitter account, and I know many big accounts like Roderic's that are not half as good at Marxism as he is.

His thing, from what I can tell, is to engage with the points and the criticism. Many people dismiss criticisms because they see it as wrong from the get-go, and don't even want to try and falsify it on that basis. He pushes us rather to engage with it, even if it's wrong, in order to show why it's wrong or doesn't apply, thereby reaching a higher level of understanding from both parties. He can be wrong too and doesn't claim to know everything.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

I'd really like to know what the "Christian nonsense" part is about lol.

And hexbear is very self-aware that it's just an obscure site in some dusty corner of the internet for hanging out and shitposting, there's no pretense of being an "organization"

Also, we constantly tell people to read theory, even the comment he used as an example does in no way refute that, I have no idea how he got from "not all knowledge comes from books and articles" to "don't read theory"

[–] [email protected] 19 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I think by Christian nonsense he means what we'd call glorifying poverty. He might be saying being impoverished doesn't offer any sort of specific insight.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Yea its about the poverty cult path some leftists take.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

That's not something that happens on hexbear though

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Look at the image he literally referenced above.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

That post is literally just saying that material conditions influence people's politics, a point he himself has made.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Yes, but the post says you can’t be a communist unless you experience the material conditions. There is a strong correlation between class and ideology, but class traitors exist from the bourgeoisie like Engels.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

They're talking about the general case. Unfortunately I can't seem to locate that user or find the post to clarify. But given two interpretations of, "This person was speaking 100% literally and believes in complete nonsense about poverty fetishization that nobody agrees with," or, "This person omitted a probably necessary qualifier to come across more strongly while making a reasonable and correct point" I'm inclined to go with the reasonably charitable interpretation. Though the poor phrasing might be why it didn't get many upvotes, and more comments.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago
[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 months ago

Hexbear is far too treatbrained to be poverty fetishists lmao

[–] [email protected] 26 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Michael Hudson is not a based progressive, he is a PB academic with a long background working for banks and other capitalist institutions. He posts his work on the literal fascist website Unz review (which he still does years after being notified it was a literal fascist website in case he was unaware) where the comments there are full of people picking up on his fascist and anti-Semitic dog whistles and running with them. All his focus on "finance capital" is quite interesting when you look at his writing about Jesus being killed by Jewish financiers and how his solution to fight finance capital is essentially empowering industrial capital. What other groups were very pro industrial capital and focused heavily on Jews as a financial elite? Probably some of the ones who are big fans of Unz Review, so Hudson seems to have chosen the right place to voluntarily publish his work online.

He was raised by Trots and his hyper focus on economics allows him to avoid any revolutionary analysis; Hudson is essentially pushing a patsoc/demsoc narrative about "fixing" the US economy by trying to roll back finance capital and do some New Deal shit which is caping for capital, not fighting it.

There may be value in his knowledge as an economist but he's absolutely not based or someone I would look to for any info outside of very specific economic data that also isn't super relevant in any organizing arena I've ever seen.

As far as Roderic Day goes, I'm not on social media to know about how terminally online he, his posts, or personality are, but I have read a few of his essays which I found very well done and informative.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

how his solution to fight finance capital is essentially empowering industrial capital. What other groups were very pro industrial capital and focused heavily on Jews as a financial elite? Probably some of the ones who are big fans of Unz Review, so Hudson seems to have chosen the right place to voluntarily publish his work online.

He was raised by Trots and his hyper focus on economics allows him to avoid any revolutionary analysis; Hudson is essentially pushing a patsoc/demsoc narrative about “fixing” the US economy by trying to roll back finance capital and do some New Deal shit which is caping for capital, not fighting it.

The hell? I screwed up in thinking that... he may have abhored Larouchites, but I guess his economic policy and thinking is Larouchism...

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 months ago (1 children)

He has been given a lot of space on many leftish / left adjacent platforms over the last several years which has given him a lot of credibility. I was very surprised to see Ben Norton giving him space on his channel for instance, someone I typically trust more than the majority of other influencers/journalists.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

MH is very good at explaining how things currently work and why. I don't think he can be ignored for that because there aren't many who can or are willing to share his insights. That might be why he gets airtime. He does allude to being a Trotskyist. And he clearly knows Marx. But I've never really heard him say anything that I'd consider to be Marxist in terms of what comes next or how we get there. I always thought he was a bit vague on that but I haven't read all his works.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago (6 children)

And he clearly knows Marx.

I’m reading Capital right now, and it does not sound like he’s read it. Shouldn’t he know about TRPF, the origin of value, and the inherent contradictions (not someone managing it wrong) of capitalism? It doesn’t sound like he does.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 6 months ago (4 children)

Yay, he’s right. He’s a little too online, but principled. I may be why he knows about hexbear. Idk what he said about JT, but it was probably reasonable. I have my own criticisms of him, but he’s overall positive. Also, Hudson’s a total revisionist. I struggled against that stance and was defeated.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 months ago

It was about ST's MMT video, it was deserved.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 months ago

about JT

The MMT video....

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

Idk what he said about JT, but it was probably reasonable.

If you don't know what he said, why would you just assume it was "probably reasonable"?

I don't know much about either of these guys, but that just seems like a weird position to take.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Day has a good track record, and I can think of a handful of things to criticize JT for? Knowing it’s the MMT video I’m even more convinced.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago (2 children)

The MMT Video of JT... R.D crit-sesh'd him....

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Imo its an L take, sure there are some childish hexbearers but there are many more promoting reading theory and organizing, they are actually very deep into das Kapital. Its a big community..

Although its kind of fun to poke our hexbear comrades from time to time.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago

the post in question only has 20 something upbeats, and like 60 comments

hexbear is suddenly a united front umbrella group and we all agree all the time.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I think he expects too much from what at its foundation is a link aggregation website.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 6 months ago (8 children)

What he expects is for the western left to take itself more seriously if it's to have any success at all, and dodging critique by hiding behind "it's a site for memes" isn't doing any good to anyone that actually wants change.

Not "expecting too much" from a link aggregation site is like not expecting too much from any western communists. The masses are online and online spaces are not separated from "real" life like that. No one is saying we can't have any fun, but at the end of the day If we don't take ourselves seriously why should anyone else take us seriously.

While I do find lemmygrad a bit better than hexbear in regards to this, it also still has an abundance of low effort meme posts and a lack of serious discussion.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I am not sure what taking itself more seriously entails. What would a serious Western left Lemmy instance look like to you? Is there any other website in this domain that you point to for inspiration?

[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Doesn't specifically have to be a lemmy instance, but any online communist space could be a serious place where anti-intellectualism is not tolerated, and where discussions with proper sourcing could lead to actual debate where certain issues are actually settled. Instead, now you have most people just yelling out their opinions with no sources, not bothering to actually engage with the counterpoints being made, and any criticism is taken as a personal attack and kts substance is ignored. No actual debate is being held, and any issues that come up stay unresolved and get brought up again and again with the same results.

What communists in the past did in newspapers and journals, we should be doing online.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

The communists who were doing that in newspapers and journals were on the forefront of organizing, they were actually learning and developing new things to write about. the western left hasn't even digested the lessons of the past, it won't be them who suddenly develops into the vanguard of revolutionary theory and ideological innovation.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Those communits weren't somehow "at the forefront of organizing" before, and then decided to start publishing articles. They became the forefront of organizing by publishing these articles, having these debates, and putting the things they figured out into practice. This is a centeal thesis of Lenin's What is to be Done?

Yes, the current western left is not going to form a vanguard tomorrow, conditions will still need to change. But at some point a vanguard will need to be formed by western communists, no one else can do it for us. These barriers aren't permanent, and they can be overcome. A part of that includes ideological struggle and debate within communist spaces.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 months ago

He's talked several times about creating such a space, and why not? We are experimenting many things still, maybe this kind of space could work. I take the view that there's always something to learn about anything, whether we like it or not, or whether we intended for it to be a lesson or not.

He's also not entirely against fun and memes, it's just that it's not his thing. I've talked to him in DMs once and he said that's fine with him, it's just not what he's looking for. That's valid too.

I think on some level people think of him to be infallible and the end all be all, but I don't think he claims to be. He's just very present and he makes a lot of good points, which perhaps cultivates this image in the process (which I don't think is intended). I mean that we can have Lemmygrad and Hexbear, and there can also be a third instance that's this more serious, heavier moderation space.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I mean hexbear is just one online place. It's not like the revolution depends on how hexbear is operating. Same for Lemmygrad. If I look at my own work for our party I think my real life efforts are endlessly more important than the shitposts I make on Lemmygrad. To me he comes off as a bit sour because he sees people having fun and he decides that's a problem to him lol. Sure, we could turn this place into a discussion board majority only but I have a feeling that we will be without users at the end of the year. Discussion is always welcome of course and we encourage it even. Everyone is free to ask whatever they want.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 months ago

I miss the better memes and more frequent discussions here.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago

Even lenin shitposted in private letters comrade, we shouldnt be expected to be anything in a anon shitposting space.

We will not respond to his silly letters...

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago

dodging critique by hiding behind “it’s a site for memes” isn’t doing any good to anyone that actually wants change

Our political memes should be both funny and a good reflection of our politics; it's right there in the concept itself. Of course you don't hold them to the same standards you would theory, but if the political point is sloppy enough it's just not a very good meme.

That's also setting aside occasions where people are having a substantive discussion and someone cops out with "come on this is just a meme board." That flies some for memes themselves and joke threads, but there are plenty of run-of-the-mill news discussions where that pops up, too.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Could it be that the western left prefers spending more time socializing online than seriously undertaking the construction of revolution because of their inherent foundation in a labor aristocracy which benefits more from imperialism and neo-colonialism than it has to gain from destroying capitalism? With most people so socially alienated in the west, coupled with having limited capacity outside of productive and reproductive labor, it isn't hard to imagine that westerners would default to commiserating on the internet over using any free time they have to study, be of service to the masses, and improve themselves. For the west, shit posting on the toilet is much easier than looking in a mirror.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 months ago (1 children)

In today's world, socializing online is not some distinct separate thing, it's an integral part of daily life for basically everyone.

Yes, the western masses benefit from imperialism, but they are also exploited and it's the communists job to successfully link the struggles against this exploitation with wider anti-imperialist struggles in the Third World.

It is easier to just sit idly in the status quo, but do you find that to be an acceptable level for communists to be at? We're not talking about the masses in general here, we're talking about self-identified communist spaces. I want and expect more from them, and a critique of their current errors is a first step to changing them.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Well now I'm going to have to spread the rumor that Hexbear is about weird Christian nonsense instead of Marxism.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 months ago

I'm not really understanding his point in the second screenshot

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago
[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago (11 children)

Michael Hudson

Literally who?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago

deng stare

Better you don’t know

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