While the whole thing seems impactful, you'd be wise to remember that nothing ever happens tho
Found so much good music in the prog archives
I get that feel... It sucks that the best alternative around me is a trot org.
Dont insult the flag
The workers are paid, but at what cost?
Yups, thank you for the correction, will correct it in the comment! And thanks for the kind words
Hmmm. Of course a big chunk of responsibility is on those opposing collectivisation and doing things like burning crops, hoarding grain to resell at a higher price, or slaughtering cattle.
That said, understanding the impulses and class interests of said people and enacting policy that minimises the harm done by kulaks is an important critique to make for me. Not mainly because of moral reasons, but to better understand the dynamics at play so that when we have to collectivise agriculture again, we take policy that ends up in fewer issues with equal results.
While you're partially right that collectivisation seems to put the blame on people doing the collectivising, I also think that the word "dekulakization" isn't well-received among libs who misunderstand it not as the extermination of a class but as the elimination of individuals.
My point isn't that I'd have done better than the Soviets in collectivisation: it was the first big successful collectivisation in human history and it ultimately saved tens of millions of lives through the industrialisation of the country that both rose life expectancy dramatically and eliminated Nazism. My point is that critiquing the processes through which collectivisation brought hardship may lead us to better understanding how to prevent these issues in following attempts, and not just shrugging off the deaths because ultimately they are morally mostly on kulaks.
In the same way that I can be thankful to the Soviets for understanding the looming threat of fascism and preparing to win an unwinnable war against Nazism and saving Europe from Hitler, I can critique their lack of understanding of the bloodthirst and class power and interests of kulaks and the negative immediate consequences of collectivisation policy.
You've already been responded by many fellow commenters so I'll try and keep it brief (edit: not that brief lmao):
but what about Robert Conquest's "The Harvest of Sorrow" (1986)?
widely accepted by many international scholars and governments (including the EU, USA, Canada, Australia, and many others)
A book written before the declassification of the Soviet archives in 1986 from the western world (in ideological and geopolitical opposition to the Soviet Union) doesn't seem the most reliable source to me? In Spain (my homeland), most peoples' understanding of the genocide in Central and South America is very biased due to the inherent bias in scholarly works on the topic for politically motivated factors. Would you take as valid the consensus of Chinese/Russian historians when discussing geopolitically relevant historical events taking place in the western world?
there was also : Grain requisition quotas [...] Blacklists [...] De-kulakization...
None of this is specifically targeted exclusibely to Ukrainians though. You may be very well in opposition to Soviet economic and agricultural policy during the famine, but that's not what I'm arguing against, I'm arguing against the idea that this was an imposed and deliberate genocide against Ukrainians. For the record though, I mostly support the policy of the first two 5-year plans, since it ultimately saved tens or million of people from genocide at the hands of Nazis by quickly industrialising and militarising the country. The alternative would have been the successful genocide and colonising by Nazis of Eastern Europe almost completely.
...“Hungerplan Öst”." but this fact does not negate or disprove the Holodomor as a separate historical event or its genocidal nature.
No, but I think it's a good comparison. There ARE documents and orders from Nazi officials stating the explicit purpose of genocide as policy in Eastern Europe, there is simply no such evidence for "Holodomor". The best that western anti-soviet historians have come up with, to my knowledge, is supposed documents showing Stalin portraying animosity towards Ukrainian nationalists. This isn't evidence of intent of genocide or of targeted hunger.
Ukraine did become a Soviet Socialist Republic. However, its "sovereignty" was largely nominal, subservient to Moscow's control
The degree of centralisation of the USSR is highly debated even in socialist circles, we're not going to reach consensus here. Suffice it to ask the question: what's a high enough standard? Are modern Catalonia or Euskal Herria more autonomous than Soviet Ukraine was? Is modern northern Ireland more so? How about Quebec? Iceland? Rèunion? My point isn't "Soviet Ukraine was perfect", it's rather "why would you give a degree of political autonomy, the right to an education in their language, and equal levels of industrialization to a people you want to genocide?" I'm using this example to prove that the intent was absolutely not genocide, because otherwise why would such liberating policy be undertaken?
However, this policy was abruptly reversed in the early 1930s (coinciding with the Holodomor), leading to severe repression of Ukrainian intellectuals, cultural figures, and religious leaders
A similar argument could be made by mostly every single national ethnicity in the former Soviet Union, including Russians, couldn't it? (Not that I agree with it, but it's a commonly made argument). Belarusian anticommunists make this claim too for example, and there's no narrative of Belarudomor. Why is this? Again the narrative of "Holodomor" shows that it tries to isolate political difficulties of the Soviet Union and make them about Ukraine specifically. You see my point?
While there was industrialization in the USSR, including Ukraine, it came at an immense human cost (e.g., forced labor
Forced labor being the source of industrialisation in the Soviet Union is thoroughly made-up anticommunist propaganda. Serious analysis of this such as that of Robert C. Allen in his book "Farm to Factory" proves that forced labor at the peak of imprisonment in the 30s didn't amount to even 4% of the GDP, so it's not a significant factor in the industrialisation of the country.
You also talk about labour and exploitation of resources but I'll ask you this: what industrialisation process has been more humane than that of the Soviet Union? Child labor in England using resources exploited from India? Germany actually exploiting Jewish people in labour camps associated to companies like Bayern or Mercedes? Spain and Italy abusing their colonies in South America and Africa? France exploiting half the world? The Soviet Union suffered hardships in the historical context of the 1930s due to international pressure and the looming threat of fascism, and even then achieved the most humane industrialization process in human history (even better than that of China in terms of worker rights, equality and standard of living). Seriously, which industrialisation process has been smoother and more humane than that of the Soviet Union?
Ukraine's post-1990 economic struggles are complex and due to many factors (transition from communism, corruption, external influences, conflicts), but attributing them solely to "anti-Russian nationalism" or implying that Soviet rule was uniformly beneficial is a oversimplification
My intention wasn't to attribute post-90s struggle to anti-russian nationalism, I think those are separate issues. I do attribute it to capitalism, though. There was not one economic crisis or similar episode of stagnation in Ukraine since WW2 remotely comparable to that of the 90s. Millions of people either died (alcohol, poor healthcare, poor access to food, poverty, suicide) or weren't born (fewer marriages, fewer children per marriage due to immense poverty, etc.) as a consequence of the redistribution of the country from a centrally planned and shared economy to a corrupt oligarchy in a very similar way to that of modern Russia. I think there is not one single indicator of quality of life that doesn't behave better in socialist Ukraine than in modern Ukraine: average years of schooling, life expectancy trends, demographic curve, access to healthcare, purchase power and access to goods, number of books read per capita per year, retirement age and pension amounts, wealth inequality, rural emigration, access to housing... Seriously, what's better now? They're at literal war against their former sister republic.
i appreciate feedback , it seems this site doesn't censor stuff
Hexbear is funnily enough known for its moderation-heavy approach, but that's mostly against transphobes, hecklers, and people with a vibes-based understanding of polítics and history coming here to say stuff like "communism sounds good but have you thought of hooman naychur?" You may get a bit piled-on because we're full of debatelords like me, but if you're honest and open-minded and not racist or transphobe, you'll be fine here :)
Dekulakization is part of collectivisation, to me it's almost sinonym.
Not the commenter above you but I'll elaborate.
The "holodomor" narrative has been popularised in Europe starting in the 2010s. It's a "reinterpretation" (see revisionism) of the history of the Soviet Union to try and make the claim that a hunger episode in the late 20s in the USSR was actually a genocide against Ukrainians.
In the lat 1920s and early 1930s, as a consequence of the collectivisation of land in the Soviet Union together with adverse weather conditions, there was a big famine that left millions of deaths. This famine struck the hardest in modern Ukraine, but millions died also in modern Russia and central Asia.
The "holodomor" narrative is peddled in Ukraine and the western world to victimise Ukrainian people and to promote the conspiracy theory that Ukrainians were genocided by the USSR, despite the lack of motive, precedent, or posterior similar events in the history of the Soviet Union, the following president of the USSR Nikita Khruschyov being Ukrainian himself. This is used both as a form of Russophobia to drive Europe further away from Russia, and as a narrative of Ukrainian anti-Russian nationalism, linked to fascist historical figures such as Stepan Bandera.
In fact, only a few years after this famine, millions of Russians, as well as Central Asians and people of other ethnicities within the Soviet Union sacrificed their lives in the liberation of Ukraine from Nazi rule, which had a policy of genocide against the "slavic Untermenschen" under the "~~Hungerplan Öst~~ Generlaplan" (thanks to @[email protected] for the correction).
There is no evidence that Ukrainians were targeted in this sad famine that killed millions both inside and outside Ukraine, no motive or evidence for Ukrainians to be particularly oppressed during the Soviet period, and no prior or following similar event in Ukraine pointing towards a direct targeting of Ukrainians.
On the contrary: during the Soviet Union, for the first time in history, Ukraine became its own republic, with Ukrainian representation, with the right to an education in Ukrainian in the Ukrainian-majority regions, and the region thrived industrially and economically (unlike it's happened since 1990, reason why Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe after 30+ years of economic recession and stagnation).
This is the result of purposeful policy of national reaffirmation of Ukrainians during the USSR: the Bolsheviks, both ideologically and in practice, promoted the local ethnicities, languages and self-governance, which is attested for example in Lenin's letters to Rosa Luxembourg: the latter saying that Ukraine shouldn't have a nationality since it had never had one before under the Russian Empire and German/Prussian occupation, and Lenin defending that Ukrainians had a right to their self-determination and political representation as Ukrainians.
Thanks if you've read this far, I appreciate nuanced and informed discussion of these topics, and I would gladly provide sources for everything I've claimed if you're interested. Have a good one!
vovchik_ilich
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Nothing ever happens gang will stay winning, rest assured