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Whenever you give me a data-driven solution to the problem I proposed with the 7.6 million Jewish Americans who are sympathetic to Israel and Biden definitely needing their vote more so than the 160,000 Palestinian Americans, you let me know.
Oh so then genocide is okay as long as it let's you win an election?
Way to completely miss the point. Impressive, really.
There wasn't a point. It was a denial that anything need to be done because the data says electoral politics are more important than stopping another genocide.
They also seem to think all jews in the United States are pro Isreal based on saying 8 million would be angered enough to vote republican if anything happened to Israel, which is also ridiculous to say while asking for data driven anything.
Even if Biden withdrew all aid to Israel, the genocide persists. So, now what?
There you go again with the straw-man fallacies. What's heavily ironic about this is I've heard ad nauseum about the 160,000 Palestinian Americans and what they might do should Biden not change his position. I already gave the PEW data indicating a sizable chunk of those 8 million are indeed supportive of Israel and no matter how you cut it, there's a greater risk to Biden's reelection.
But moreover think about just how short-sighted your thinking is here. Even if Biden stops the aid now and it backfires for Biden's reelection, then Trump gets in — where will you be? Will you be celebrating and patting yourself on the back because Biden shot himself in the foot while Trump steamrolls Palestinians?
I think you just might.
Got it. You are okay with genocide as long as it gets to a electoral victory.
There ya go with those strawman fallacies, again!
Such a strong fighter for these 8 months. Yet don't seem to care whatsoever about the consequences for Palestinians (or Ukrainians for that matter) for the next 4 years. How curious.
I thought you hated strawman arguments?
And now we're too the any criticism of Biden means they're for Trump. Way to get 2 in one there.
Plus still haven't seen your source on how the entire Jewish population in the country are okay with Israels handling of Palestinians and the whole genocide they're doing.
Well then my mistake; for sure: Be critical of Biden all you want. I don't agree with you on what's strategically better for ensuring his reelection but so be it.
All I care is that you vote for Biden in November. Anything short of that is equivalent to being for Trump.
Also, my bad - it was from another comment chain here:
Is this even remotely supported by polling data?
The answer is no, it really is not
There are 172,000 Palestinian Americans.
There are 7.6 million Jewish Americans who still heavily lean in support of Israeli actions.
And progressives who, being the most informed part of the electorate, know damn well if Trump gets in then it's orders-of-magnitude worse for the Palestinians.
... But hey, just one legit (or illegitimate false-flag) terrorist attack post-revocation of aid to Israel — and tell me, what happens to Biden and Democrats' chances then...?
Got it you just don't like people pointing out Bidens flaws.
I mean yeah totally fair to use it as representative population but not like pew research is the best, or polls have been very accurate in the last few years.
And again you can't say
When thats more than the entire population in the states (and surprisingly more than the population of Israel)
https://www.jewishagency.org/jewish-population-rises-to-15-7-million-worldwide-in-2023/
Finally let's suppose all of the Jewish people are going to be mad at Biden for stopping support of Israel due to them committing genocide, who would they vote for? They'd have the same issue as everyone else and have to bite their tongue and vote for Biden.
At this point who cares about Israel? It's clear they aren't making Jewish people safer, and those who would participate in the election are Americans
Incorrect. I just don't like people shooting themselves in the foot or having tunnel-vision without seeing the bigger picture.
hahahah what the hell are you saying? You think PEW is flawed? Do tell how. Do you even understand how statistics work? I bet you didn't even look at their methodology let alone MoE.
Who cares? Whether it's 6.7 million "by some estimates," or 7.6 million "by some estimates." — that in no way changes my point, but good on you for digging in the weeds out of complete irrelevance.
Well now we've come full-circle. The same question can be posed to Biden by his staff by asking, "What will tankies and the left do, vote for Trump? Not vote? Vote 3rd party? See how that worked out for their agenda when literally every progressive advancement came on the backs of the Democratic party and every reversal thereof came from Republicans." So between the two groups, which will Biden choose to risk less, the bigger voting population, or the smaller voting population?
Unfortunately there are a lot of swing-voters out there, too, who haven't had their minds made up. Until they fall into a camp, the Biden administration is going to toe the line to ensure such voters are still reachable.
Not talking about Israel. I'm talking about the relentless propaganda campaign about, "How Biden is an antisemite and jeopardized the safety of Jewish people of Israel by taking away their self-defense." This would be repeated across all right-wing outlets, not to mention the massive amount of foreign interference that is already occurring by Israeli and Russian operatives.
hahahah what the hell are you saying? You think PEW is flawed? Do tell how. Do you even understand how statistics work? I bet you didn’t even look at their methodology let alone MoE.
appeal to ridicule
Blatant straw-men have already occurred with me; in my view the door is open. I have no problem dishing back what was already served. If they want to dial it down, then I shall treat them with the utmost respect but these, "Got it. You just don't x." responses are tiresome. Of all the things you could hit me for, I believe this is pretty light but I'll own it as a fallacy.
Are you okay?
another appeal to ridicule? can't you just accept that it takes two to tango, and you are actively making this place worse?
No seriously, are you okay? It does not, in fact, take two, lest you seek one person to run their mouths and the other to just take it. So unless you're suggesting we enable bullying without pushing the bully back or fallacies without objection, I'm not really sure what the point is that you're making.
So kindly explain your thought-process when you respond with simply re-quoting what I said and nothing more; for overall I think my comments remained largely neutral, barring the low-hanging fruit you identified and which I even acknowledged.
i was pointing out the hypocrisy
What's hypocritical about noting, "these, 'Got it. You just don’t x.' responses are tiresome"? Do you not recognize the obvious snarkiness and straw-man fallacy? Are you saying I'm not allowed to call this out?
And why are you replying multiple times to the same comment instead of just consolidating your response into one?
i'm saying you are doing teh same thing, and you're right that they are exhausting, so you should also knock it off.
i don't like to have multiple ideas in one comment, and i have found it's an excellent tactic for breaking up a gish gallop. you can read more here:
https://lemmy.world/post/10922324
Hmm, that's really strange. I'll just report you for spam then. Thanks.
in the months that have followed, this has neverbeen an issue for me.
i'm saying don't use dishonest rhetoric
I'm fine with that; just make sure you go to the other user in the thread and say the same thing.
Did you do that?
Did you tell them as well that, "it takes two to tango"?
Curiously you did not.
do you think they would be more willing than you to stop engaging dishonestly?
Who's engaging dishonestly? Citation needed. That has yet to be substantively evinced.
you admitted that you were using fallacious rhetoric already (thouh your admission is not necessary: it was prima facie). but you also (correctly) pointed out a strawman, which is also fallacious rhetoric.
i asked you to be the bigger person.
Double-standard.
Ask both. Go on... It "takes two to tango," after all.
you'll forgive me if this reads as though you are not only acting in bad faith, but know you are, and plan to continue.
It's intentional. Best guess is these are either wedge-driving trolls, or very young and naive sub-20-year-olds full of idealism but lacking a particular degree of foresight.
Yes anyone who disagrees must be young or a troll. Great rebuttal there
If they dodge the arguments presented and double-down with bullshit accusations and shitty obvious strawman fallacies, then yes, absofuckinglutely.
Sometimes doing the right thing is more important than an election. If LBJ had taken your advice, Civil Rights would never have happened in America.
Apples and oranges in my view; for Is there any law that Biden can sign right now?
Is there anything Biden can do right now that won't be immediately reversed by Trump and orders-of-magnitude worse?
Hence why under these circumstances, in my opinion, following the polling data and ensuring election is paramount.
In the meantime we should all be focused not on criticizing Biden but targeting the pro-Israeli voters and trying to sway them. If you change them, the polling changes, and so too will Biden's position.
And ultimately that's exactly what we've seen over the last couple of months.
You’d sell your mother into slavery to get Biden elected, that much is obvious. You have no moral framework for any of your so-called “principles,” your only concern is winning. Which is precisely how we got to this point after the third-way Democrats compromised with neoliberalism by allowing corporate donations to dominate their party. Compromising your humanity by settling with the lesser evil is still evil.
Hahaha I'm sorry, what? Now you're just going off the deep end.
I'd rather ensure my mother doesn't live with Trump as president for another 4 years. It's not good for her blood pressure.
Unfortunately you just seem far too short-sighted to comprehend the big picture, here. You'd rather manufacture purity tests for the Democrats even if that means holding the door open for literal evil. Classic pyrrhic victory.
Lambast Democrats all you want. Yet Every Single progressive advancement we've had in this country has come through the Democratic party.
I’m not saying to not vote for Biden to prevent the fascism of Trump. I will. And I have to make peace with that, if I can. But I’m not gonna lie to myself and others to justify this administrations actions regarding Palestine. Genocide should never be condoned, even for poll numbers.
I entirely sympathize with that and think this is a very grounded comment. From my view I feel Democrats are losing the information war and our ties to Israel are too deep to just uproot overnight without disastrous consequences.
I weigh the pros/cons of: Biden cutting all ties and aid overnight with Israel versus the risk to popularity and losing the election and handing the keys to Trump. Put another way: if this wasn't election season and polls weren't this tight, I think Biden would've dropped Israel much faster and absorbed the risk. (sort of like withdrawing from Afghanistan far away from an election).
It is imperative every one of us keep pushing against the Israeli narrative so we alter the polling in favor of walking away from Israel.
This is false, they are split and it's much fewer votes to be lost. Maybe none, maybe even some gained.
I'd love your source, because PEW suggests otherwise.
No source, just personal experience. Older people are split, younger people all against Israel (in these events). That's about my relatives from the Jewish side in the US.