751
Sealioning
(lemmy.world)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2024
751 points (96.2% liked)
Comic Strips
24585 readers
1939 users here now
Comic Strips is a community for those who love comic stories.
Rules
-
😇 Be Nice!
- Treat others with respect and dignity. Friendly banter is okay, as long as it is mutual; keyword: friendly.
-
🏘️ Community Standards
- Comics should be a full story, from start to finish, in one post.
- Posts should be safe and enjoyable by the majority of community members, both here on lemmy.world and other instances.
- Any comic that would qualify as raunchy, lewd, or otherwise draw unwanted attention by nosy coworkers, spouses, or family members should be tagged as NSFW.
- Moderators have final say on what and what does not qualify as appropriate. Use common sense, and if need be, err on the side of caution.
-
🧬 Keep it Real
- Comics should be made and posted by real human beans, not by automated means like bots or AI. This is not the community for that sort of thing.
-
📽️ Credit Where Credit is Due
- Comics should include the original attribution to the artist(s) involved, and be unmodified. Bonus points if you include a link back to their website. When in doubt, use a reverse image search to try to find the original version. Repeat offenders will have their posts removed, be temporarily banned from posting, or if all else fails, be permanently banned from posting.
- Attributions include, but are not limited to, watermarks, links, or other text or imagery that artists add to their comics to use for identification purposes. If you find a comic without any such markings, it would be a good idea to see if you can find an original version. If one cannot be found, say so and ask the community for help!
-
📋 Post Formatting
- Post an image, gallery, or link to a specific comic hosted on another site; e.g., the author's website.
- Meta posts about the community should be tagged with [Meta] either at the beginning or the end of the post title.
- When linking to a comic hosted on another site, ensure the link is to the comic itself and not just to the website; e.g.,
✅ Correct: https://xkcd.com/386/
❌ Incorrect: https://xkcd.com/
-
📬 Post Frequency/SPAM
- Each user (regardless of instance) may post up to five (5 🖐) comics a day. This can be any combination of personal comics you have written yourself, or other author's comics. Any comics exceeding five (5 🖐) will be removed.
-
🏴☠️ Internationalization (i18n)
- Non-English posts are welcome. Please tag the post title with the original language, and include an English translation in the body of the post; e.g.,
Sí, por favor [Spanish/Español]
- Non-English posts are welcome. Please tag the post title with the original language, and include an English translation in the body of the post; e.g.,
-
🍿 Moderation
- We are human, just like most everybody else on Lemmy. If you feel a moderation decision was made in error, you are welcome to reach out to anybody on the moderation team for clarification. Keep in mind that moderation decisions may be final.
- When reporting posts and/or comments, quote which rule is being broken, and why you feel it broke the rules.
Banned Artists
The following artists are banned from the community.
- Jago
- Stonetoss
- GPrime85
It should be noted that when you make reports, it is your responsibility to provide rational reasoning why something should be removed. Saying it simply breaks community rules is not always good enough.
Web Accessibility
Note: This is not a rule, but a helpful suggestion.
When posting images, you should strive to add alt-text for screen readers to use to describe the image you're posting:
Another helpful thing to do is to provide a transcription of the text in your images, as well as brief descriptions of what's going on. (example)
Web of Links
- !linuxmemes@lemmy.world: "I use Arch btw"
- !memes@lemmy.world: memes (you don't say!)
Other Comic Communities of Interest
- !bloomcounty@sopuli.xyz
- !calvinandhobbes@lemmy.world
- !cyanideandhappiness@discuss.online
- !exo@discuss.online
- !foxtrot@slrpnk.net
- !garfield@lemmy.world
- !moomin@sopuli.xyz
- !oglaf@discuss.online (NSFW)
- !outland@slrpnk.net
- !pbf@discuss.online
- !peanuts@discuss.online
- !smbc@discuss.online
- !theboondocks@slrpnk.net
- !thefarside@sh.itjust.works
- !xkcd@lemmy.world
- !NoseEars@lemy.lol
founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
Is there a difference between sealioning and just asking for verification of a bold claim? On a forum such as Lemmy, where people are encouraged to have unsolicited debate in the comments, are we by nature immune from the worst aspects of sealioning?
There is. Sealioning is when you know damn well your position is wrong or otherwise odious, but rather than confront that point (or come right out and say it) you instead pester the other party incessantly to support every single little claim they make with the usually unspoken implication that everyone should think those claims are false.
The difference is that individuals engaging in Sealioning are not doing so in good faith, and the acid test comes about pretty quickly they they don't address or digest any of the points you've supported with evidence/sources and instead move the goalposts immediately and pivot to quibbling about something else and demanding a source for that, instead.
Another Sealioning trick is to fixate on something you said or take it out of context, build a straw man of your argument, and demand evidence/sources for the argument you did not technically make -- ideally, a straw man argument that is deliberately unsupportable, or is attacking a matter of your opinion and not a fact but treating it as if it should be supported by citations and evidence. E.g., I don't like Metallica because I think Lars Ulrich is a douchebag. Sealion: "Excuse me, but can you provide a source attesting to Lars Ulruch personally being a douchebag to you?" No, I just don't like him because he rubs me the wrong way plus the whole Napster thing back in the day. "Well, since you have not addressed my polite request for a source attesting to Lars Ulrich personally being a douche to you, [ignoring the supportable claim about the Napster thing] your opinion about not like Metallica is obviously laughably absurd [and therefore you are deserving of the ridicule and inserts I am about to heap on you, or will direct others to make at you]." Etc.
Spot in. And then there's the concern trolling, "it's important that you provide evidence for your disturbing claims about Lars Ulrich because otherwise you discredit the #metoo movement".
None of that is demonstrated in the comic, it's a bad example.
Yep, pretty much.
I've been accused of Sealioning for literally sourcing one claim... with five different sources... Just one claim.
I don't have time to go through 5 different sources! Quit Sealioning!
It's not sealioning...
Quit gish galloping then!
Guys... providing multiple sources for your argument isn't a fallacy. It's literally just sourcing your fucking claims lmfao.
Ahh, the fallacy fallacy, ironically the most common fallacy I encounter online.
Hexbear in a nutshell.
Hexbear has the same problem as Reddit: it's home to a handful of active, loud, incredibly toxic communities that like to go into other people's online spaces and be assholes.
Also: if you go there and do what they do elsewhere, you get banned.
To be honest, if someone is saying some bigoted shit that is exactly what I'm doing. I don't expect to change the bigots opinion. My intention is:
You know I think I would modify that intention. I've found it's better not to argue sort of, for some third party observer, or, to argue just to wear them down, but I think it's better to argue just for yourself, for your own sake. It still kind of requires a good ability for discernment, but if you can find a sealion that can keep you sharp, that's probably good enough. Less noble is maybe just arguing with them because you personally find it amusing, which is also probably not a terrible thing.
Generally, though, I always kind of wonder generally why it is that the time-tested and great advice of "don't feed the trolls" has tended to fall by the wayside over the years, if it was ever really followed at all. I suppose only one person needs to falter to register as an engagement, but it's pretty hard for an uncoordinated effort to end up flooding a site with propaganda, because people just tend to give up (or in lots of instances, self-isolate, which is maybe a different problem) if they get ignored enough.
I find "Don't feed the trolls" is less of a concern on a site like Lemmy that filters by up and down votes. The trolls get filtered to the bottom and don't clutter everyone's feeds. The more of the troll's time I waste the less they can spend trolling other people.
Something like Steam Community Forums where a thread gets bumped to the top every time it receives a new reply, dear God stop feeding the trolls! It makes it an unusable mess.
A big component of sealioning, as I think you've pointed out, is one party pretending to not understand the intent or argument behind your reasoning and rephrasing it in a way to make it sound ridiculous, but in the form of a question. The goal is to counter someone's argument by hoping that they don't have the argumentative or expressive capacity to succinctly clarify themselves or identify that you're asking questions in bad faith.
I like this explanation.
To add one more aspect: When someone writes a reply asking for a source, did they actually do a short Google-search related to the claim? It basically takes the same time to just look at the summary of the search results as asking for a source. So I assume if someone asks for verification for an easily searchable fact, then they are acting in bad faith.
Also one more thing: If you notice someone acting in bad faith, don't engage with them. Downvote them, move on. This is especially true for the next few months until the US elections are over. You will notice it a day after the elections that the quality of discussions will increase because the bad faith actors will take a vacation. What happened on Reddit in 2016 is happening here right now.
no one is responsible for supporting our argument except you.
Yeah, I feel the same. If you are making claims with no source people should be allowed to ask for the source without needing to look themselves.
Exactly. If I ask someone for a source on something I feel is wrong it's because I specifically want to know the information they're working from. If I look it up straight away and send them a link that says they're wrong straight out of the gate they aren't even going to open it.
Do you have any evidence supporting your position that this is the proper way to debate a sealion?
This point rubs me a little wrong both on the basis that
A) onus of proof falls on the one making the claim
B) if it takes the same amount of time to find the answer as it took for them to ask you, then logically it takes the same amount of time to include a source for anyone that wants further reading as it would to make them look for it
and (most importantly)
C) you can find pretty much anything on the internet if you've got 12 minutes to dedicate to looking through all the clickbait.
The result becomes that I can say any batshit thing I want to and now it's your job to discredit your own stance for me, and if you aren't convinced, you aren't googling hard enough. Instead of just asking and finding out I got it from The Onion, which I would naturally be very against having to say out loud.
I've had sealions ask me for a source that the sun shines during the day before. The idea is to wear your opponent down. It's not a good faith line of questioning.
At which point you point out their obvious bad faith argument and stop responding.
I find that relentless mockery is the best way of countering a sealion. Don't cede the field to them. But also don't get drawn into a bad faith argument. Just insult and make fun of them until they leave.
That just feeds their persecution complex and their argument that "You don't have any rebuttal, just insults!"
Don't get into a drawn out conversation with them, but a field of people giving simple responses pointing out the obvious flaws it what they are saying drowns out their message to any outside observer and shows why they are incorrect.
When I’m not sure, I just give them the benefit of the doubt. For example, there’s a good chance that the person replying to me speaks English well, but it’s not their first language. Also, their cultural norms might be very different from my own. It could be a simple misunderstanding, too. Overreacting would just make things worse.
When it’s obvious that the person replying is just being a pedantic nuisance, though, I merely stop responding. They may think they’ve “won”, but so what? I can go to bed knowing I don’t waste my time sealioning.
The point of internet arguments is not to convince your opponent. That never happens.
The point is to convince the audience, and if you just leave then it looks like the sealion is right.
When the comment chain goes on long enough, there is no more audience.
Depends. If it's a subject I feel strongly about I'll go down the whole damn chain upvoting and downvoting as applicable.
Addendum: when a comment chain goes on long enough in both length and time since the original post, there is no more audience.
One of the things I miss about forum threads sorted by most recent comment
That would be a draw imo
Why do you think that is?
The thing is a true sealion only "wins" by dragging you into a long offtopic comment chain.
Professional sealions (we don't have them here yet thank god) come armed with a list of "talking points" they use to try to derail genuine conversations and turn them into something else.
Damn, that’s sad. I have nothing but pity for anyone who considers themselves a “true” or “professional” sea lion.
Yeah, I think this is kind of the correct mentality. The currency of trolls is (you)s, you should only feed trolls if they're giving you something actually interesting or novel or amusing in return, rather than getting baited, or giving up and ignoring it altogether. I think it's important for people to reward comments that they like with thought-out responses, rather than the other way around.
Yeah there's a difference. @dual_sport_dork described it well.
But no we're not 100% immune from it. I've seen a few people try to do it.
Depends if the person wants to answer or avoid the question. If they want to avoid it, you're sea lioning.