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Think of a dish made by a world class chef, that food is probably exquisitely crafted using unique and fresh ingredients. There probably aren't that many people out there who truly appreciate it, and probably a lot who just think it's weird.
Now think of pizza. It's relatively cheap and broadly appealing. It wouldn't be put in the same class as the food prepared by the chef, but a lot more of it gets consumed.
Taylor Swift is talented, pretty, affable, has a superior work ethic, and makes music that's catchy and easily digestible. Like pizza, her music appeals to the broadest group of people.
I like this explanation, but I feel like there are plenty of other artists who fit into that category.
Is it just random that they had to pick one brand of pizza to go crazy over do you think?
The pizza has been carefully crafted by teams of experts to appeal to the largest audience.
As someone who couldn't name a single Swift song up until a couple of months ago — From what I read she writes the vast majority of her songs, which is exceptionally rare for pop stars; especially from such a young age... The songs may be simplistic and formulaic, but the lyrics are decent for the age they were written at, and the work ethic and genre jumping is impressive. The most admirable thing about her is how she's screwing venture capitalists by re-recording all the songs she wrote. I hope she starts redistributing all that wealth she's extracting.
Ok just don't forget she came from money and had opportunities:
That definitely helps. I think it's interesting that access to uncommon opportunities is generally presented as a negative thing in Taylor Swift's case but ignored for Michael Jackson or even contemporaries like Beyonce.
Oh no I'll happily call out anyone for that.
Dunno any of her new stuff, but I'd be surprised if you've never heard any of the following as they were very overplayed, even though they are good:
Teardrops from my guitar
Love story
Our song
Blank space
You belong with me
She is a damn fine businesswoman. She was able to use social media to have a relationship with her followers and build a large audience. That's one of the main reasons she became famous.
Also, there have been a couple of situations that benefited her fame, such as the Kanye incident
Thanks
Luck and timing are big factors. There are many talented artists out there that work hard and make the kind of music that (in theory) should appeal to a large audience but never make it. Either at all or not to the level of Taylor Swift. If you make the right music at the right time, your chances increase but you still need luck.
Edit: what I've heard of Taylor is that she's very good in making the right music at the right time. The songs fit the trends in music. But I've never listened much to her, so I don't know for sure if its correct
Thanks, someone else compared her to other pop stars like Michael Jackson and Madonna, and all of those people were at the forefront of their particular movement.
I feel like Taylor Swift is just in the middle of all the other pop stars.
Appreciate it, I'm going to try and look into it from that perspective, maybe I just don't understand the music world at all. I definitely don't.
I just remembered a big factor as to why artists such as Madonna have a long career: they managed to appeal to the queer crowd, who tend to be fiercely dedicated to anyone who stands up for them.
Don’t forget the money and connections. IIRC her father literally bought(?) or created(?) a label to sign her. There a lot more talented artists out there but she had the money and connections that gave her a very big headstart. Talent can only get you so far in the industry. It’s luck/timing and money/connections that allow you to break through.
My brother is a swiftie and seems to think that her talent is above and beyond a standard artists talent. One thing that is praised is how much range she has covered across her albums.
I'm personally not a fan, and to me she seems overrated, but I also have to recognize the mass following and legitimate consistency in the music quality. She's not like a Katy Perry recycling the same tune.
So I think she's like a really nice pizza, appealing but always good quality, always fresh.
A couple people have mentioned her range, but they also only mention her relationship and breakup songs. What else does she sing about that gives her range?
When people talk about her range they are usually talking about musical styles, she has a lot of different sounds. Not all of her songs are about relationships, but probably most of them, they are not all about breakups though. That isn't too uncommon though, probably one of the most common things people sing about.
She might not recycle the same tune, but it kinda seems like she recycles the same themes verbatim. I'd say she's closer to Papa John's than a good quality pizza shop. Her music is probably good, but I doubt that it's usually great.
You have to explore all her albums in order to really form that opinion. People who like that kind of music will do so, and likely decide that she is phenomenal.
But then folks like you and me will not want to take time to ingest all that music that doesn't appeal to us, so we have to speculate based off what we get exposed to which is generally her pop songs on the radio and such. But we aren't really getting the full Taylor Swift. So it's like we're judging a sample of her stuff (which sounds like a lot of other pop cuz all pop sounds basically the same) and oversimplify what she offers to music.
I'm completely speculating... Like I said we'd have to dive into all those albums and listen to really form a meaningful opinion.
That's a fair opinion. I usually don't listen to albums, even for creators I like, so it didn't really click that her most famous works might not be why people like her.
That being said, there were a few (probably cherrypicked) clips of her concerts where she said something "inspirational" (or quirky?), and her fans go absolutely insane, and to me it just sounds like the most mundane stuff you could say. So until I listen to her stuff I'll keep my existing impression.
And are there not plenty of other popular artists?
There are, and none with so many awards or the same kind of popularity.
She's smart and not lazy. A lot of people get fame and money and massively shift their focus. Longevity is probably the toughest part, not going crazy, and remaining relatable to young people while simultaneously having millions of dollars.
Gordon Ramsay isn't the best chef on the world, still he has the most restaurants by a big margin
A ton of people would say Tswift is their ultimate fantasy fuck even though she isn't the hottest girl on the planet (she still could be a model probably, being slim and tall)
Being famous always has a certain pull to it and if you do it right you can leverage being famous to become even more famous
Worlds top athletes are overpaid (at least in team sports) would you rather have the #1 player or a team full of top 100 players... Well the #1 player sells a ton of merch, but almost always the team with more depth is winning games (if the budget is equal)
Top athletes are grossly underpaid. Basketball straight up truncates them. Giannis would make at least double on the open market. Football, the best players make the same as second and third tier players at their position, entirely dependent on when they hit FA.
Yeah…I’m not sure what sports we're talking here. I don’t want to assume an American perspective, so I genuinely don’t know when it comes to soccer, cricket, rugby, etc.
But here Stateside, the best players are often not the most highly paid. Patrick Mahomes - and I understand people can disagree - is not the most highly paid QB. Not for a while. Prior to this season, Travis Kelce had been the top TE in the NFL for a number of years, but his contract hadn’t reflected it for some time.
Even without the salary cap, in a sport like Major League Baseball, one could argue a player like Shohei Otahni is still not being paid what he’s actually worth, despite his record breaking contract. He’s a Hall of Fame pitcher and hitter in one player. The contracts for each of those individually is worth more than what he got.
I disagree with this. She’s a pretty amazing song writer, which is really uncommon for pop stars. I can see why someone would think she’s more like pizza if you only listen to the hits, but if you actually sit down and listen to a whole album you’ll find that there aren’t many songs that are just flat-out bad. Actually, one my favorites by her is a B side. You can actually track her progress as a musician from fairly generic country artist to someone who has a really unique and uncomplicated sound. I mean, I get why people go for the “simple = easy”, but that’s simply not the case. It’s really difficult to write a song that is as clean and as well put together as she does and still have it be good. To continue your food metaphor, Taylor would be like sushi; there doesn’t have to be a ton of ingredients to be incredibly delicious.
Then you also have to consider that she’s Gen Z, has been doing this for 18 years, and has managed to stay fairly relevant most of that time. Like she really is the only Gen Z pop star who has managed to stay in the limelight without dropping out of being a complete tool (Justin Bieber).
You also have to consider that for a long time she had a carefully crafted public image as a champion of the LGBTQ+ community. Whether she actually is or isn’t doesn’t really matter (I personally think it’s a lot of rainbow-washing) when you have bops like “You Need to Calm Down”. Or the fact that she features a bunch of trans people in the video she directed for “Lavender Haze”.
Just because you make pizza, doesn't mean you don't make great pizza. I'm not saying she's out here making $0.99 Mr. P's Pizzas ("fabulous" in their own right).
I've considered it, but it's not true. She may appeal to Gen Z but she was born in '89, making her dead center of being a millennial.
I've never said she's bad, but if you've ever listened to more complex music, her's isn't that. She's great at what she does, and seemingly smart and levelheaded, and that's fantastic. But to say her songs are masterpieces that are like beautifully woven tapestry of lyrics and music, I don't see it. And, in all fairness, if they were, she'd probably have a fan base 95% smaller.
I meant that she’s a Gen Z staple, not that she herself is Gen Z. She is to a lot of Gen Z folks what a Green Day is to older millennials like myself. She’s been around most of my life.
That being said, I do listen to a lot of complex music. I listen to a huge variety of music. Like when people say “I listen to everything”, I actually mean it. I’ve played with bands that range for noise to country to classical to jazz to metal to industrial to electronica. And I will say there are a lot of people, especially in the rock and metal scenes, that seem to think that more is always better. Like bigger, faster, louder, more technical, harder to play…that somehow that makes better music. It doesn’t. Like I can enjoy some Tim Henson, he’s an amazing guitarist. I love me some Buckethead or Les Claypool. But to say that their music is better music because it’s more technically difficult to play is kind of funny.
Let me give you an example. Most people will tell you that “Stairway to Heaven” is a great song. I would agree. The solo at the beginning is iconic. But it’s also not hard to play.
If you want a great example of Taylor Swift that doesn’t make normal play that will help you understand, I would suggest “Snow on the Beach”. Don’t try to pick apart lyrics or music. Relax, and let the vibe of the music roll over you. Once you get the overall vibe, then pick into the music and the lyrics. What Taylor is a master of isn’t amazing lyrics or technical songwriting. She’s a master of a song emoting. Like she sets a mood better than almost any musician I’ve seen. While it’s a more popular song, “Lavender Haze” is another great example of a song that is amazing at describing in music that feeling of being in a new relationship and just not wanting to leave.
How is she an amazing song writer? What song do you think stands out and is amazing?
I feel like this is kind of a trap question. Everything about this entire thread feels that way - I don’t want it to seem as if I’m attacking you here - and it’s a microcosm of why discussion of Swift is so polarizing. For some reason, she, more than any other artist I can call to mind, is discussed in black and white terminology. There’s almost no middle ground. You need to either love her or hate her.
Does she possess the lyrical genius of, like, Leonard Cohen? I mean, I don’t know. I think she’s pretty great, but back in the day I’d have been stoned to death on r/Music for suggesting they were in the same league.
What I will say is I think she’s as honest as Cohen was, and that’s something the best songwriters all have. I think she writes from an extremely authentic place, and I respect the hell out of that. In recent years, I think co-writing with Jack Antonoff has only further unlocked her potential.
Some examples of hers I think are great - You’re On Your Own Kid, Champagne Problems, and My Tears Ricochet.
Her pop stuff has some great lyricism as well, but pop music as a genre is generally under appreciated for its lyrics. Obviously, not in all cases; there’s a shitload of manufactured garbage out there. But most of the 1989 album is borderline - if not outright - excellent in this regard. It didn’t get any serious attention though until that shitbag Ryan Adams covered the whole thing, and got people to hear the lyrics in a different way.
I understand you feel that way. But this thread made me give her a chance, so I listened to a couple of her albums. They were pretty decent. Catchy music, good car music. So I get it, she is pretty good. I guess I wouldn't call her amazing but I can see how others may feel that way.
I haven't looked into her lyrics yet. If she is honest, that sounds great to me.
Thank you. :)
Pretty cool you gave her a chance!
I’m a middle aged guy, and I grew up primarily on a mix of 60s-70s-80s rock that my dad fed me, great folk artists my mom loved, and the music of my own formative years (probably most impactful was the grunge scene and its most famous children).
I don’t identify with much modern music, but she’s someone I’ve always respected for some reason. There are obviously other exceptions as well, she’s just the biggest thing going right now.
The world class chef can only cook for a few at a time. Digital distribution means big voice.
Is she NY style or deep dish?
St. Louis