307
this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
307 points (94.0% liked)
politics
19120 readers
2662 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Completely disagree. It's a nation like any other. It has as much right to exist as the USA or Constantinople.
I'm not entirely on board with the idea of nations having rights at all. The people living in them do, but I don't see how an abstract entity should have rights that the people it represents don't have on their own.
To give a concrete example: the people of Iraq have a right to exist. But it's a country composed of ethnic groups that don't especially like each other, so having them all live in a single country isn't necessarily great. I don't think Iraq has a right to be a country, especially if it's interfering with the right to self-determination of the people living there. Maybe as a practical matter it's better for the country to exist, but rights aren't supposed to be contingent on practical concerns.
Well... they did make corporations "people" - so there is that kind of lunacy around.
Constantinople was a city, not a nation.
But other than that, I agree that Israel has as much right to exist as any other nation. Saying Israel should not exist is implicitly antisemitic because you can't get rid of the nation of Israel without wiping out the Jewish people living there.
Bullshit. Jewish people have a right to exist - Israel doesn't.
How do you get rid of Israel without killing a lot of Jewish people?
Did the US commit genocide by toppling the Taliban, Clyde?
You wanna try something else to prop up your bullshit apologetics or are we done here?
The fuck are you talking about? Did the US topple the Taliban? Last I checked, Afghanistan is still a country, and it's still run by the Taliban. How is that in any way analogous to Israel? Also, not for nothing, but the US has indiscriminately killed a lot of people in the Middle East, but nothing I would categorize as a genocide.
And Palestine will still exist when the white supremacist settler-colonialist state squatting on it is dismantled. You know... Palestine? That place that has been home to Jewish people since before Jesus?
So, again, Clyde - do have something other than white supremacism apologetics to offer?
You've lost me. How is Palestine analogous to Palestine? The Israeli leadership will literally die before they cede control of the nation to the Palestinian Authority.
I don't know who the fuck Clyde is, or why you seem to think anything I've said is white supremacy, but it makes me doubt your grasp on reality and wonder if I'm wasting my time on you.
No, Clyde - I didn't. You were lost a long time ago, and it has nothing to do with me.
It's really simple - if you engage in apologetics for a white supremacist settler-colonialist state that makes you a... what?
It's about as simple as political math gets, Clyde.
Well if you're just going to make shit up, I think we're done. I'll let Clyde know you're looking to argue with him, if I ever meet him.
Are you going to pretend that your apologetics for a white supremacist settler-colonialist state is (somehow) made up now?
Don't run off, Clyde... your ducking and diving is becoming amusing.
Seems like one of us is pretending, but feel free to point to any apologetics. Check my history. Check reddit, I had the same username for like 10 years. Find anything even remotely supportive of white supremacy, and I'll stay.
Or you could apologize for the false accusations, but I doubt you have the capacity to admit a mistake.
This you, apologist?
Gee... I wonder what the correct term would be for someone who peddles apologetics for a white supremacist settler-colonialist state?
Don't help me... it's on the tip of my tongue.
How is that apologetics? There's a fucking war, and Israel is currently engaged in a genocide against Palestinians, and Hamas is using their deaths to fundraise for their next terrorist attack. How do you end the ethno-state without violence? I don't know how we get there.
Why am I even bothering with you. You're clearly more interested in labeling me to feel superior than you are in being honest about the problem.
Oh, you've only noticed that now - thanks to Hamas' attack, eh? What did you think Israel has been doing since 1949, Clyde?
Do tell... what differentiates you from the people who labelled the ANC "terrorists" back in the 80s? Or the people who labelled the Viet Cong "terrorists" back in the 70s? Or the people who labelled Jim Brown a "terrorist" back when the Antebellum South was still a thing?
Sorry, Clyde - but it's a loaded question. We both know the answer to that one.
Whoops. Didn't know much about Constantinople except the song. Yugoslavia on the other hand was a country but no more. There was violence involved but not out and out genocide.
That's OK, I had to look it up myself because there were a lot of city states during the Roman empire, and I wasn't sure if Constantinople was one of them.
Also, there was the Bosnian genocide.
Funny you picked Yugoslavia where there was definitely an out and out genocide.
Not only was there genocide/ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, the US (through NATO) was directly involved in trying to end it.
You don't have to kill all the Israeli's to get rid of Israel. Nations are made by people accepting that they exist. Before Israel was Israel it was just a bunch of politically savvy zionists who started telling people to move there. With a lot of wealthy Jewish investors they just started buying land and refusing to let Palestinians work on it. Over time and with enough established countries recognising Israel as its own thing, that's what it became.
If tomorrow the entire world just decided that Israel didn't exist then it would cease to, they may object but they'd be invaders occupying land that doesn't belong to them. It might sound silly but this is how Israel was created.
In theory, sure, but Israelis believe that they have been chosen by God to defend their holy land. They believe they are under attack (which isn't unfounded, given Hamas' horrific attacks October 7th) and they believe that if they are not in power, that the Arab world will begin another Holocaust (also not unfounded, considering the rhetoric used by Islamic leaders in the region).
And Israel has nuclear weapons.
Before Israel was Israel, it was under British control, and the British army defended the Zionists displacing Palestinians. There were several violent revolts, and many people were killed. They didn't just buy property until they owned Tel Aviv. Land was taken by force.
Westerners see Israel as an ally, surrounded by jihadists and terrorists and despots fighting tooth and nail to merely continue to exist. And all of that is true, but it creates the false impression that Israelis are somehow more reasonable than the jihadists. That the Jewish people will listen to a rational argument and act responsibly and with reverence to human life. That, if American support goes away, the Israeli leadership will see the writing on the wall and seek a peaceful solution rather than face oblivion.
There is no peaceful end to Israel. You won't have to kill all the Jewish people living there, but you will have to kill many of them.
I see what you're saying, and perhaps you're right. I am more hopeful, though. Plenty of Israelis support Palestine and in the early days the Palestinians welcomed the Jews. It's not fair to simply dismiss vast groups of people as irrational or terrorists. At one point in time these people got along, and even though a lot has happened since then I don't think it's impossible to get back there.
I think Western support does play a large role, it's the reason why the Israeli military is what it is and probably why Israel feels free to indiscriminately attack Palestine. If our support was more conditional and not so one sided it would encourage cooperation and more peaceful resolutions.