World News
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News [email protected]
Politics [email protected]
World Politics [email protected]
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
view the rest of the comments
Now, while the above definition would include launching missiles near civilian infrastructure to dissuade retaliation, you are correct that the typical reference to the use of human shields is specifically around hostage taking - which is additionally defined as a war crime in its own right.
So if you want to claim that Hamas doesn't take hostages or that they did but then didn't colocate hostages near military operations, then potentially we could have a conversation about the degree to which they met the textbook definitions of human shields (as was discussed in Amnesty International's piece calling for the hostages to be released and not located near military operations here).
But the topic in the original article relating to the EU condemnation and much of the current conversation of Hamas using schools or hospitals as "human shields" relates to their colocation of military operations including rockets near civilian infrastructure.
So we're really splitting hairs here with the semantics relative to the OP article.
Have a source for this specific claim? Because they certainly seem to take a critical stance on the practice.
The fact that you think there's a "winning side" to which group in a conflict in the Middle East is or isn't performing war crimes pretty clearly tells me you aren't particularly concerned with the topic of truth at all actually.
It’s in the Amnesty International’s pdf, and the image I commented. According to Amnesty International, there is no evidence other than Israeli accusations, that Hamas uses human shields.
Well, that’s just your opinion. The fact that I have given you a source for the truth, yet you still refuse to recognize that there is no evidence of Hamas using human shields, shows me you aren’t actually interested in the truth, but fulfilling a confirmation bias you’ve developed.
Again, you are citing only partial and misleading context.
Here's the full passage from the report:
So they quote from the same guidelines I just cited, pretty much word for word, and were saying that some of the allegations would not have qualified as using human shields based on the ICRC guidelines, such as storing munitions in civilian buildings or launching attacks in the vicinity of civilian buildings.
Because the important part of what's determined as using human shields is the intentional co-location of the actual humans, not simply the incidental vicinity of civilians.
This does not mean, as you are implying, that launching missiles from within or directly next to an inhabited hospital somehow isn't considered using human shields by Amnesty International. As the language you left out of "several of these actions" not qualifying as the use of human shields indicates, several of the other actions are considered to be the use of human shields.
And the key guidelines to determine the difference per Amnesty International are the exact same guidelines I previously linked to and quoted.
You've clearly crossed the line well into the territory of what's intentionally a bad faith argument here.
Some nerve to talk about a confirmation bias.
Edit: And again some nerve to talk about there being "no evidence" when the report is littered with things like:
Or
What is misleading? It clearly states:
If it met the criteria for a “human shield,” that would have been stated. This has nothing to do with bad faith. Hamas does not use human shields, according to Amnesty International. Your argument isn’t with me, it’s with them. Are they operating in bad faith? Barring an independent investigation to prove otherwise, this is what their investigation found.
What's misleading is that they are only referring to some of the alleged behavior not qualifying, not all of the alleged behavior.
Using an inhabited hospital as a military HQ where you are conducting interrogations and launching missiles from absolutely meets "using the presence of civilians or protected persons to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."
Firing rockets a block away from an apartment building or storing munitions in an abandoned school doesn't. And those are the kind of allegations that the report explicitly called out before the part you are quoting (storing munitions in civilian buildings or firing from the vicinity of).
Hahaha, that's not at all what the report says anywhere. It's only saying that some of the behavior that was alleged as using human shields doesn't qualify as that designation.
Literally taking hostages and having them nearby military operations is the textbook definition as I mentioned previously. Are you saying Hamas didn't do that recently?
This is circular. That’s not what their investigation found. Am I to take the opinion of kromem on Lemmy, or Amnesty International? Sorry, I’m gonna take the opinion of Amnesty every time.
Then you might want to actually read the whole thing and not only the parts you mistakenly think agree with you.
I did read the whole thing. I agree Hamas has committed multiple war crimes,
Just because you don’t like their findings doesn’t make their findings mistaken. You lost, you’ll get over it.
Exactly. Read it again.
Now tell me how using an inhabited hospital as a military base and to launch attacks from doesn't meet that criteria?
Or how taking hostages and co-locating them with military operations doesn't.
Ah, a fan of circular logic I see. Contact Amnesty International and tell them they’re wrong:
Yet again you ignore that they were only talking about some of the allegations.
If Amnesty International published a report that said some of the world's population has XY chromosomes, would you think it appropriate to claim that they've said that all of the world's population has XY chromosomes?
Because you seem to keep not understanding that what you are referring to explicitly called out that only several of the allegations don't constitute the use of human shields and deferred to the cited litmus test to determine.
You seem to be very uncomfortable with answering how that cited litmus test doesn't apply to several of the allegations towards Hamas, instead pretending that Amnesty International claimed all of the alleged behavior in 2014 wouldn't constitute the use of human shields (and that this somehow carries forward to other behavior in the current conflict which definitely does meet the criteria).
In particular, they seem to be paraphrasing the legal findings section of the UN's Goldstone report (items 493-497) regarding the distinction, which further specified the aspect of intentionality:
So as I said, the dismissal of incidental attacks from the vicinity of civilian infrastructure as using human shields is different from the intentional staging of attacks from a hospital to prevent retaliation.
That’s what they investigated.
Red Herring.
The ones they investigated.
Perfectly comfortable. Never said all. I can only cite what they investigated.
Irrelevant.
Still irrelevant. From their limited investigation, they determined that Hamas had not used human shields. You still never countered the accusation that Israel used Palestinians as “human shields,” by B’Tselem. I wonder why?
Because that wasn't the thing being debated? That's in keeping with most of the investigations into Israeli forces, including the previously cited UN report.
What was being debated was whether Hamas had used or is using human shields.
You are continuing to misrepresent the Amnesty International report, which did not say that all of the allegations it investigated did not meet the Geneva convention definition of using human shields, but only specified that "Several of these actions which have been discussed above" (from a list of various IDF claims at the top of p.48) did not meet the criteria, further getting into the nuance of the legality of the issue as I've discussed extensively by now with you, and you've ignored.
In fact, they instead said:
True. I just find that interesting, since it pertains to the use of human shields.
Again, I can only cite the ones they investigated. The others are hearsay.
Then get in your “Teddy Bear” and investigate them.
And yet you are managing to not even do that, given the specific part of the report isn't even talking about specific investigated incidents but more broadly discussing clarifications regarding human shield international law abstractly and focusing on the intent vs incidental aspects, as I've previously discussed over and over by now.
WTF?
The findings of the investigation are in the image. You are misrepresenting their findings.
If you know, you know.
Thanks for helping to clarify who the aggressors are in this conflict. You have helped serve the Palestinian cause well.
Wrong for the eighth time. That paragraph isn't related to the findings of the report on the investigated incidents. It's an abstract discussion about international law and the importance of intentionality to the legal interpretation of alleged abuses. That's why I said to read the whole report, which given your continued coming back to the out of context image, you clearly didn't do.
Trolls gonna troll. You've shown your true colors several times in our exchange, but it never hurts to make it more explicitly clear I guess.
Uh,no. The statement was included because they couldn’t verify the accusations of human shields. There’s a reason the investigators made this statement.
I am pro-Palestine, not pro-Hamas, if I can make it clearer. But lies made by the Israeli government only serves to justify the ethnic cleansing that is happening. You can’t obfuscate the truth.
For the record: