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this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2023
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Sooo… are there still rockets being fired from Terrorists? Are the hostages still being kept by the terrorists?
Why should Israel stop attacking the terrorists?
Because thousands of innocent civilians are being killed too?
Copied from a different comment: Prove (!) that the casualties in Palestine aren’t primarily Hamas Terrorists. The claim by their „Health Authority“ means nothing - because that is Hamas.
Well this is just a bad take.
I don't like Hammas, specially because they were funded by Israel to attack Fattah and other members of the PLO in the 80' and spread terror until today.
But right now Hammas is trying to negotiate to release their hostages, but for Israel is more important to bomb Gaza (supposedly Hammas, cause of course there is no secular civilians in Gaza) than the safety of their own citizens.
Its not like Israel could still attack Hammas after the deal, you know?
Hamas can release the hostages at any second. There are no negotiations required for Hamas to cease their active imprisonment of kidnapped people.
But the hostages are likely the only thing standing in the way of a full blown ethnic cleaning.
However, don't confuse this with me defending Hamas in any way.
Wow - just wow.
So to put this into perspective: You are saying that Hamas PREEMPTIVELY took civilian hostages, while massacring more than a thousand other civilians, to PREVENT a „full blown ethnic cleaning“ in Gaza? An alleged ethnic cleaning that now is supposed to take place AFTER Hamas and the Islamic Jihad Terrorists murdered all those civilians?
Noooo… this is not defending Hamas and Islamic Jihad at all. But I do question your ability for reasoning.
Not at all.
Them taking the hostages was horrible in the first place and likely no real forethought was had for that plan.
But, after Israel's war crimes and them showing no sign of slowing down, it is likely the hostages have been one of the only reasons the careless bombings and killings of thousands of civilians (half of which are children) haven't been even worse (as unfathomable as it may seem)
Yeah, it sounds in your posts like Hamas are the good guys, care about the hostages, trying to release them against Israel will. Of course this is after Hamas without provocation brutally killed 1500 civilians, and captured those hostages. But of course, it is Israeli fault.
I don't get what part of
You read as
You are fighting a strawman my friend.
I was just responding the point that still exists hostages in Gaza, I don't expect that Hammas cares about hostages but I expect that Israel care about their citizens, because the first is a militia, and other is a state with one of the best army in the world.
Independently of what I believe or not, when Israel says "we don't negotiate with terrorists", it is just a political decision, maybe even this negotiation would not work, but is not something that Israel strategists are venting.
Ok, fair enough. You should also notice them that Israel still did not start the ground offensive.
Sure only if you ignore the past 80 years of brutal oppression and colonisation.
You should look for the meaning of “provocation “ when we talk about brutality killing 1500+ civilians. If you point to history as provocations, then Jews can give you a looooooong list of 3000+ years “provocations “ and where would it lead us?
I guess it makes sense to not claim things like "without provocation" in this context. Especially when you're aware the other side disagrees.
It is especially important to point to this and discuss this with the other side, otherwise what we achieve if we avoid topics on our disagreement? As for provocation, the attack was prepared for multiple months, and likely years. If anything provoked this attack at this particular time, it is the prospects of normalization with other Arab states such as Saudi Arabia. Hamas wants to destroy Israel, it does not need normalization.
Because their aim is shit. If my aim was as bad as theirs, I wouldn't have kids.
Their aim is shit? Prove (!) that the casualties in Palestine aren’t primarily Hamas Terrorists. The claim by their „Health Authority“ means nothing - because that is Hamas.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/
"In their stated intent to use all means to destroy Hamas, Israeli forces have shown a shocking disregard for civilian lives. They have pulverized street after street of residential buildings killing civilians on a mass scale and destroying essential infrastructure, while new restrictions mean Gaza is fast running out of water, medicine, fuel and electricity. Testimonies from eyewitness and survivors highlighted, again and again, how Israeli attacks decimated Palestinian families, causing such destruction that surviving relatives have little but rubble to remember their loved ones by,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General."
Alternately:
Ordering the evacuation of a million people, causing a humanitarian crisis:
https://www.who.int/news/item/14-10-2023-evacuation-orders-by-israel-to-hospitals-in-northern-gaza-are-a-death-sentence-for-the-sick-and-injured
Then launching an air strike on the same people attempting to evacuate?
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html
You are being sarcastic here... right ?
Not at all.
Long read THE OPERATION IN GAZA 27 DECEMBER 2008 – 18 JANUARY 2009 Factual and Legal Aspects
Yes! And they should stop before more innocent civilian lives are destroyed; not that they care about civilians at all!
I think they just kill them rather than take hostages, right? They consider them to be like animals!
Ohh, you meant Hamas?
You don’t seem to understand the concept of war. If Hamas deliberately places launch sites close to civilian infrastructure, which is a war crime in itself by the way, this infrastructure becomes a legitimate target. Civilian casualties have to be avoided but not at all costs. Especially if Hamas Terrorists wear civilian clothing.
This is International Humanitarian Law - the Law of War.
ISIS style killings is not beneath Hamas and Islamic Jihad. And yes - those Terrorists act like animals deliberately.
Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth. All they have is civilian infrastructure! By your definition, they shouldn't be allowed to retaliate at all if they didn't want to risk civilian deaths.
Israel is bombing hospitals, schools and civilian houses with dozens and dozens of reports of children and innocent civilians being horrifically murdered as a result.
And let's be adults and stop gassing for a minute: Israel wants Gaza to shrink, and said as much, as if illegally stealing all that land to begin with wasn't enough.
That's what this is all about. Terrorist settlers in the West Bank are clearing out villages by walking about to people and shooting them at point-blank range, with soldiers only a few feet away, just watching and not reacting. They're not even 'at war' and those terrorists are clearing Palestinian Territory.
This is simply and truly a Nazi-esque genocide, conducted by people whose grandparents likely witnessed those horrors first hand. They should know better.
You don’t seem to understand. It is war. If a building became a military target because Hamas Terrorists were in it or near it - that building became a legitimate military target according to International Humanitarian Law. Israel is then legally allowed to destroy that target, even though this might cause civilian deaths. I personally don’t like this, but this is the reality of war. A war that Hamas has brought to the Palestinian people.
The stance of Israel is: If you attack us, you have to pay for that by losing land. And several Terrorist Groups have attacked Israel quite a lot to be frank. Of course the territory gets smaller and smaller every time.
If this happens, those people are criminals and should be put in jail.
This is Bullshit - and you know it. If Israel wanted genocide, they could have done it several times already. There are ten times as many Palestinians now, compared to creation of the state Israel in 1948. You do realize how incredibly bad the Israelis seem to be with this whole genocide thing?
On the other hand: Remind me again what the Hamas founding charter says about Israel?
I'll remember these kind of comments next time I hear that "never again" nonsense.
You definitely should remember this, since this is the reality of war that Hamas has forced on the Palestinian people. And Hamas tries everything in their power to exacerbate the civilian casualties by deliberately placing their launch sites close to civilian infrastructure and civilians as a whole and also dressing like civilians.
So tell me, how should Israel protect its own citizens against the Hamas/Islamic Jihad war criminals that STILL fire rockets against civilians?
Let me ask you two questions.
If Hamas is forcing this upon the Palestinian people, and is forcefully preventing civilians from moving away from them, that makes the Palestinian people effectively hostages of Hamas. So if the Palestinian hostages happen to be near Hamas terrorists, are they acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
Eventually, Israel will find out where the Israeli hostages are being kept. Obviously, there will be Hamas terrorists near them. Are the Israeli hostages acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
If you answered yes to one question, and no to the other, you should ask yourself why you put different value on the lives of innocent human beings. Is it what side of a fence they are born on? What nationality they happen to have? What religion they believe in? The color of their skin?
Let me guess, they should "protect its own citizens" by commiting genocide by bombing everything to the ground in the Gaza Strip?
Quit throwing around the word genocide, if you obviously do not know what it means. It sounds fancy and strong though, doesn’t it?
You cannot answer a question with another question.
How should Israel protect its own citizens against the Hamas/Islamic Jihad war criminals that STILL fire rockets against civilians?
I know exactly what "genocide" means. It means a deliberate killing of a group of people with the intent of destroying their nation / group. It also means displacing people out of their lands to get rid of their national identity. I wonder if that has happened recently in Gaza.
I can ask an obviously biased person on the internet if they support genocide. Which you do - otherwise you wouldn't try to say it's not genocide, and then ask "what else are they supposed to do if not commit genocide? :("
Civilians die and are displaced in every war, that doesn't automatically make it genocide lmao. Are they levelling the west bank too?
Another one excusing genocide as "just a war".
God forbid anyone ask you to be more precise with your definitions instead of shitting out whatever word gets you the most emotional points.
Genocide is a precise enough definition for what is happening in Palestine.
Clearly passes the bar for "precision" in your mind, though that bar seems low. Genocide is a bit of a pointless word to throw at Israel because you'd have to automatically apply it to the other side too, the side that has blatantly declared its intent for genocide but just doesn't have the power to back it up fully. So before accusing Israel of genocide without doing the same for Hamas, imagine what things would look like there if the power dynamic was reversed.
It's called diplomacy, start practicing now because there won't be any more opportunities when the whole middle east have each other under siege like Israel is doing to Palestineans now.
Interesting take
So the murdering of those civilians on October 7 was a call for negotiations by Hamas?
No, dummy. The taking of hostages was though.