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[–] 49 points 16 hours ago (18 children)

Well, no. If you're taking a stack of supposed moral allegories as fact, Lucifer was cast out for defying God, not for being naughty. Lucifer wouldn't kneel to mankind and serve them, thinking them lesser, so God tossed him out. Again, if you think myths are facts.

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  • [–] 37 points 16 hours ago (3 children)

    Look, I don't know what to tell to you "atheists." I met the devil last week and she was utterly forthright and honest in the reason for her expulsion from heaven. Clams. Paella, specifically. She has no idea where people got this rebellion thing.

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  • [–] 19 points 16 hours ago* (3 children)

    That's medieval fanfic built over badly translated old testament passages that are talking about local kings and it's literally in the previous and next passages that they weren't talking about any angel... the only thing about being cast out is in Revelations after a war in heaven, that is said the dragon is the same as the serpent, the serpent that told humans that god lied that the fruit would kill them but instead would give us knowledge of good and evil, so literally pushed us towards developing philosophy and sciences, and that war is narrated just after god wipes a third of humanity in one go, turns the oceans into blood, send plagues, famine, beetles that sting like scorpions, and tortured the rest of humanity that for months would look for death and not find it and good were the mothers who smashed their babies against the rocks etc etc etc, that's what the dragon rose up against

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  • [–] 3 points 16 hours ago*

    The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon

    12 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

    3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

    Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

    7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for [b]them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

    The Woman Persecuted

    13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Does it say that in Revelations 13 somewhere? Because it does not say that in Revelations 12 anywhere.

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  • [+] -11 points 16 hours ago* (1 child)

    No.

    Book of Job proves you wrong, Revelation proves you wrong, various references throughout Bible I won't bother to look up prove you wrong, and Jesus said that you are wrong. No Christian theologian agrees with you and no atheist theologian agrees with you. Because it's untrue, sorry.

    You should probably read the Bible again (or for the first time?), perhaps annotated would be of help.

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  • [–] 10 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

    What part is untrue? That god said eating the fruit would certainly kill them and the serpent said it wasn't true and they ate and didn't die and instead gained knowledge (and lived till they were like 800yo or something)? The part that god killed a third of humanity in one go and then gruesomely tortured the rest? That the dragon rose up against that genocidal maniac with an ego bigger than creation? Or that those Isaiah/Ezekiel verses that created the myth about beauty, jealousy, narcissism, etc, that shaped the image of Lucifer in pop culture are about the kings of Babylon/Tyre? Is it really me that should read again?

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  • [–] 15 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

    I'd still vibe more with the guy who won't kneel to us - we suck.

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  • [–] 3 points 14 hours ago (1 child)

    And ... the rest of the angels do kneel to us?

    So if I met an angel, I could command it to do whatever I wanted, and it would obey?

    I need to get a new summoning book...

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  • [–] 1 point 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

    Maybe. Probably. No refunds though.


    • Temu Angel Summoning Kit, Candle Pak 6, Celestial Circle, and Fuzzy-Wuzzy Sacrificial Lamb are Trademarks of Xianzhou Holy Enterprise, llc. *

    *Book Of Flesh W/ Angelic Summer Breeze dust cover sold separately.

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  • [–] -1 points 16 hours ago (4 children)

    That's not how the story goes at all.

    He didn't defy God; he wanted to be God.

    Mankind wasn't a factor, it didn't even exist.

    You'd have better luck spinning a story about a bad breakup and we're a puppy someone got out of impulse, thinking it'd fill the lonely void.

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  • [–] 6 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

    Thats how it goes in NKJV. But yes, there are other versions with variations on the tale.

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  • [–] -5 points 14 hours ago* (2 children)

    No it does not.

    The version of bible does not change canon, just the language/interpretation of language.

    The narrative you mention does not exist canonically in any Bible.

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  • [–] 5 points 12 hours ago (1 child)

    Okay so what is your denomination's version of canon? I see a lot of denial here and thats about it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

    I'm no longer a Christian, and I don't think any of it is fact. But I was one for 22 years and went to Bible college before seeing the light and studying anthropology. What a text says and whether it's true are two different things, and you're making a claim about what's in that text that just isn't true. You're right that the overarching theme was defiance, but not anything else.

    Your "refusal to bow to mankind" is only found in later non-canonical texts after the Bible. It's why it is canon in one Abrahamic text...the Qur'an. Not the NKJV, and obv not any translation of the Christian Bible. I.e. not in the teachings or literature of Christianity, nor your NKJV.

    The story never mentions humanity, not even where the NT brings it up. The Torah covers creation and the Fall, so the Bible gets all that from there and so there's no Lucifer story in it. The Torah doesn't say the serpent was Satan at all, so neither does Genesis. In the Bible, only until Isaiah is the Lucifer story established, which doesn't mention what you said at all and that's the core for that tale in that literature. The only place Satan actually gets pinned to the serpent in Genesis is Revelation, and even there, nothing about refusing to bow to humans.

    You may have been preached some individual's interpretation of the Bible, including their reading of texts written after the Bible (like, 100-700years after), but if you read it, you'd read what I'm saying and not find mention of what you're saying.

    Your narrative doesn't exist in any Bible. This isn't a difference of opinion, denominations, versions, whatever. This is something you can Google right now if you can't be bothered reading your NKJV.

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