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[–] 33 points 2 days ago (23 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

In philosophy of religion, the problem of evil, also known as the problem of suffering, is the philosophical question of how to reconcile the existence of evil and suffering with the notion of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God.

Philosophers have been considering this one for at least 2300 years.

I'll update this post when they come to a firm conclusion.

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  • [–] 15 points 2 days ago (1 child)

    The answer is simple. The premise is wrong. The reason it has taken 2300 years is because people have too strong a fear of mortality and need daddygod to save them. I get it. It's terrifying.

    But this isn't a hard problem at all. It's akin to "if leprechauns exist, why can't I find the pot of gold"

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago

    I mean.. that is the argument.

    The premise is that God is omnipotent and benevolent. However, evil exists. Therefore, there is no God.

    Others argue that there may be a God but they're not benevolent. Others argue hundreds of other variations.

    Philosophers love discussing thought and dissecting logic too much to come to a real conclusion on most things existential. The discussion is the point.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 day ago* (1 child)

    The most plausible conclusion would seem to be that God is not merciful, but is instead a sadist. But most people don't want to continuously live in fear, and there's clearly nothing you can do to mitigate the suffering by appeasing a sadistic God who gives children cancer for the lols.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 days ago (2 children)

    Ehh, there are many explanations that do make sense (within theology, anyways). It's really everyone's assumption that "omnibenevolent" somehow magically means he wouldn't allow any harm or ill feelings, which... is a very silly premise to begin with. Many people also remove God's own free will by somehow thinking omnipotence mixed in means he must do certain things.

    I don't believe in the BS most religions teach, or basically all of them if you take their teachings as a whole, but the absolutism in some of the dismissals get just as silly. Many teach about human free will, which immediately tells you that God can choose not to do things in the first place, let alone all the, "mysterious ways" crap.

    Also, a funnier direct explanation could be that all that BS about humans being special and that other animals are just chattel for us to take care of and bla bla... What if God has been talking to some other species the whole time and we're just hearing bits of the convo? I'd laugh my ass off if those sorts of religions were largely correct but turns out it's like dust mites that are the chosen ones, and we're just their giant dust cows.

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  • [–] 1 point 23 hours ago* (1 child)

    It's really everyone's assumption that "omnibenevolent" somehow magically means he wouldn't allow any harm or ill feelings, which... is a very silly premise to begin with.

    Except I don't expect god to fix everything - I expect god to contribute as much as I try to.

    Based on outcomes, god is either not as good as I am, or not as competent.

    I'm pretty special, but I ought to be a low bar, on the scale of dieties.

    Edit: I spent a lot of my life noticing signs that god was pulling gods weight. But what I found, what l believe, is that human communities are pulling the weights that god takes credit for.

    That arguably deserves some kind of divine credit, which I'm happy to respect. But it doesn't deserve an unbreakably loyalty to an unquestionable book of holy instructions - which is usually what "god" is asking in return.

    When god manages to stick to "take care of windows and orphans", and "welcome outcasts", god and I are on the same page, at least.

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  • [–] 2 points 23 hours ago*

    arguably deserves credit... for things that are demonstrably not from there.

    Weird way to admit you cannot let go of the idea of Sky Daddy.

    Humanity desperately needs to grow beyond the field of poorly held fantasy.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (12 children)

    I thought the answer was free will

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (11 children)

    Free will doesn't give babies cancer.

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  • [–] 1 point 22 hours ago (1 child)

    They would say we live in a "fallen world", but even ignoring evil like natural disasters, it still requires special pleading in the case of God. If I see someone trying to kill someone else I'm morally compelled to intervene but God can't because that would be interfering with free will. Why am I able to "restrict" the murder's free will but God isn't?

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  • [–] 1 point 20 hours ago

    Well, because he doesn't feel like it. We know he isn't above interfering with free will. Exodus 7:3

    “But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and I will multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt. ”

    Exodus 14:4

    I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, so that I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.

    Dude literally contravened Pharaoh's free will just to flex.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago (8 children)

    But humans use their free will to do fucked up shit like building paper factories next to populated areas or dumping their industrial waste into the local water supply. Or smoking around children. No one claimed that the consequences of free will are limited to impacting only the acting agent.

    Maybe cancer still existed before industry, but there's no way to deny that industry has drastically increased cancer rates.

    I'm not here arguing for theism, but someone said the problem of evil hasn't been solved, so I merely pointed out that free will is a viable answer to about 99% of that problem, and thinkers have been discussing it since at least the Middle Ages, so it's kinda revisionist to say no one has ever answered it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (7 children)

    Dinosaurs had cancer. Industry undoubtedly increases rates, but it's not intrinsically tied to free will in any way. Same with natural disasters. Dinosaurs didn't sin to deserve mass extinction, and tsunamis and earthquakes aren't in any way related to human free will.

    The issue is that the suffering is unnecessary. Could God accomplish his goals without natural disasters? For an omnipotent God, the answer has to be yes. That means he desires unnecessary suffering, and therefore can't be all loving. If not, he's not omnipotent.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (6 children)

    Okay but that could also be framed as the free will of the universe and the natural world itself.

    Either the universe functions according to certain immutable laws (i.e., gravity, momentum, electromagnetism, convection, entropy, etc.), or it doesn't. A universe that has no immutable laws would be chaotic, unpredictable, and unstable. It would not be able to support life, let alone one that's free of suffering.

    And so say it's part of the bargain. "You get to live in a predictable world, one that doesn't simply dissolve or combust spontaneously, and in exchange you must live with the immutable laws which make it so stable and predictable in the first place."

    And so meteor strikes, hurricanes, tsunamis, droughts, even carnivorous megafauna predators, are all a part of the universe/natural world playing out those same laws that were already set from the moment of its inception.

    How could you eliminate suffering entirely without exerting excessive control and making the world either a bland dystopian wasteland, or some chaotic fever dream that never ceases in its kaleidoscopic confusion?

    That's not to say we should be masochists. We can apply our own freewill to reduce suffering as much as possible for ourselves and others, and we should.

    But to try to eliminate it entirely? That's falling for the same fallacy that leads a fascist to conclude that the way to build a utopia is by brutally crushing dissent.

    Again, I'm not arguing for theism. And I doubt most theists would accept my explanation anyway, except maybe a deist who might claim something similar.

    I'm merely pointing out that omnipotence and omnibenevolence don't necessarily preclude suffering, unless you assume that the omnipotent and omnibenevolent being is also a hyper-controlling totalitarian. But in my opinion, that wouldn't be benevolent.

    And so suffering is as much a part of life as is entropy, hunger, or sadness. Would you really want to live in a world where you didn't even feel sad when a loved one dies?

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  • [–] 2 points 23 hours ago* (1 child)

    I want to live in a world where my loves ones don't die.

    unless you assume that the omnipotent and omnibenevolent being is also a hyper-controlling totalitarian. But in my opinion, that wouldn't be benevolent.

    I like the gist of this argument, but it falls apart - for me - when the omnipotent god doesn't even do the truly basic things that I would do for any vulnerable creature, if I could.

    We humans have built many video games that have just as much support for free will as the real world, while having much more reasonable difficulty curves.

    In some cases, we simply ommit things that just suck for everyone (such as cancer).

    It's really hard to believe in an omnipotent and loving god who chooses not to step in and do those things.

    That said, some of us just need to believe anyway.

    But at the point that I'm choosing what to believe, well, Zeus is an asshole. I can imagine better. And many traditional views of powerful gods have the same problems as Zeus, to me.

    Anyway, thanks for sharing your take on all this. I found it thought provoking.

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  • [–] 3 points 22 hours ago

    I want to live in a world where my loves ones don't die.

    Wouldn't we all? But what would that mean? A static world populated by immortal beings who don't reproduce? Because if no one could die, yet people multiplied anyway, what would happen?

    We might deplete the world of resources, pack it shore to shore so tightly that the lucky ones get to climb around on top of the massive continental dogpile. But since we can't die, we would just be stuck like that.

    It would be a failure of entropy. And we might view entropy as a bad thing, but if we take an honest look at it we'll see that it's necessary for life. It's not merely some cliché to say that without death there can be no life. It's part of the natural harmony, balance, and equilibrium of the universe itself.

    After all, what is cancer but a failure of entropy? Sure, it might start as a mutation of a cell. But that cell begins to reproduce, and the tissue begins to grow. If the body doesn't succeed in breaking it down and removing it faster than it grows, then it only gets bigger, until it starts to kill everything around it, eventually compromising the whole system, leading to death.

    If there were no entropy, there could be no life. Your body is constantly breaking itself down and renewing itself. The only way to eliminate death would be to eliminate entropy, but by eliminating entropy you would also eliminate life.

    Of course it's cruel and unfair that innocent children get sick and die. There's no way around that and I'm not going to try to explain it away with some callous religious tautologies. So maybe that's the difference between me and a theist.

    It's not "the mysterious work of a god whom we can't understand." It's just nature in its brutal, unfeeling aspect: red in tooth and claw. It's Murphy's Law applied to the uncompromising mechanisms which make life possible to begin with. The cold, unnegotiable cost of living in a world where the grass is green and the birds sing, where flowers bloom and the wind carries puffy clouds across the sky after a heavy rain. You didn't choose to pay it; neither did they, yet there it is. Life never came with a guarantee.

    And I'll reiterate once more that my intention here is not to make a theistic claim, but to pick apart the underlying assumptions we make when we say things like "Wouldn't it be better to live in a world without pain, illness, or death?" And it just so happens that "the problem of evil" was the perfect container for this analysis.

    So if you found it thought-provoking, I'm glad. That is the sum of all I could ask to get out of writing this.

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  • [–] 1 point 20 hours ago (3 children)

    A few of these are actually pretty common Christian points.

    part of the bargain

    God doesn't have to bargain with physical laws. He can do literally anything. He could make a universe where everything explodes randomly for no reason but wills earth to not explode because he loves us. That would be fantastic evidence for his existence and basically disprove a natural universe.

    omnipotence and omnibenevolence don't necessarily preclude suffering

    I agree, that's why I specified unnecessary suffering.

    Would you really want to live in a world where you didn't even feel sad when a loved one dies?

    There's allegedly no suffering at all in heaven, and that's the end goal for Christianity. So if you're looking down and see your descendants getting melted by a volcano you wouldn't be sad. Doesn't seem great.

    There was also allegedly little or no suffering on earth in the garden if you take Genesis literally.

    So all of this is fully within God's abilities.

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  • [–] 1 point 18 hours ago (2 children)

    I'm confused. You began your comment by saying my points are commonly made in Christianity, and then you spent the rest of your comment explaining why those same points are incompatible with Christianity?

    It's like you're trying to squeeze my words into a box they don't fit in, and then pointing out how they don't fit in that box.

    I'm not arguing from a Christian perspective. I took "the problem of evil" from the philosophy of religion as a launching point, because that was the topic of this thread. But I made it pretty clear I wasn't making a theistic argument; the closest it could have been to that would simply be in the role of devil's advocate.

    But if you look at the substance of my analysis, it's not "Some all-powerful deity can snap his fingers and change anything/everything instantaneously." It's "there are certain immutable laws of the universe which make life and existence possible, but because of those same laws, suffering and death are a package deal when you enter this world."

    The bargain isn't between "God and the Universe." It's between "You and Life." And it's this: to live within the universe is to be subject to those immutable laws. And one of those laws is entropy.

    There's no need for an omnipotent god to hold the universe together so that it doesn't explode. The laws of gravity, inertia, electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear forces, etc., they take care of that already.

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  • [–] 1 point 13 hours ago (1 child)

    I'm not sure what you're trying to argue then. I'm talking about the problem of evil, as posted in the top level comment. The problem of evil only is a problem if you believe in a tri-omni God. Otherwise, you can say "things just be like that."

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