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[–] 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (7 children)

Dinosaurs had cancer. Industry undoubtedly increases rates, but it's not intrinsically tied to free will in any way. Same with natural disasters. Dinosaurs didn't sin to deserve mass extinction, and tsunamis and earthquakes aren't in any way related to human free will.

The issue is that the suffering is unnecessary. Could God accomplish his goals without natural disasters? For an omnipotent God, the answer has to be yes. That means he desires unnecessary suffering, and therefore can't be all loving. If not, he's not omnipotent.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (6 children)

    Okay but that could also be framed as the free will of the universe and the natural world itself.

    Either the universe functions according to certain immutable laws (i.e., gravity, momentum, electromagnetism, convection, entropy, etc.), or it doesn't. A universe that has no immutable laws would be chaotic, unpredictable, and unstable. It would not be able to support life, let alone one that's free of suffering.

    And so say it's part of the bargain. "You get to live in a predictable world, one that doesn't simply dissolve or combust spontaneously, and in exchange you must live with the immutable laws which make it so stable and predictable in the first place."

    And so meteor strikes, hurricanes, tsunamis, droughts, even carnivorous megafauna predators, are all a part of the universe/natural world playing out those same laws that were already set from the moment of its inception.

    How could you eliminate suffering entirely without exerting excessive control and making the world either a bland dystopian wasteland, or some chaotic fever dream that never ceases in its kaleidoscopic confusion?

    That's not to say we should be masochists. We can apply our own freewill to reduce suffering as much as possible for ourselves and others, and we should.

    But to try to eliminate it entirely? That's falling for the same fallacy that leads a fascist to conclude that the way to build a utopia is by brutally crushing dissent.

    Again, I'm not arguing for theism. And I doubt most theists would accept my explanation anyway, except maybe a deist who might claim something similar.

    I'm merely pointing out that omnipotence and omnibenevolence don't necessarily preclude suffering, unless you assume that the omnipotent and omnibenevolent being is also a hyper-controlling totalitarian. But in my opinion, that wouldn't be benevolent.

    And so suffering is as much a part of life as is entropy, hunger, or sadness. Would you really want to live in a world where you didn't even feel sad when a loved one dies?

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  • [–] 2 points 22 hours ago* (1 child)

    I want to live in a world where my loves ones don't die.

    unless you assume that the omnipotent and omnibenevolent being is also a hyper-controlling totalitarian. But in my opinion, that wouldn't be benevolent.

    I like the gist of this argument, but it falls apart - for me - when the omnipotent god doesn't even do the truly basic things that I would do for any vulnerable creature, if I could.

    We humans have built many video games that have just as much support for free will as the real world, while having much more reasonable difficulty curves.

    In some cases, we simply ommit things that just suck for everyone (such as cancer).

    It's really hard to believe in an omnipotent and loving god who chooses not to step in and do those things.

    That said, some of us just need to believe anyway.

    But at the point that I'm choosing what to believe, well, Zeus is an asshole. I can imagine better. And many traditional views of powerful gods have the same problems as Zeus, to me.

    Anyway, thanks for sharing your take on all this. I found it thought provoking.

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  • [–] 3 points 22 hours ago

    I want to live in a world where my loves ones don't die.

    Wouldn't we all? But what would that mean? A static world populated by immortal beings who don't reproduce? Because if no one could die, yet people multiplied anyway, what would happen?

    We might deplete the world of resources, pack it shore to shore so tightly that the lucky ones get to climb around on top of the massive continental dogpile. But since we can't die, we would just be stuck like that.

    It would be a failure of entropy. And we might view entropy as a bad thing, but if we take an honest look at it we'll see that it's necessary for life. It's not merely some cliché to say that without death there can be no life. It's part of the natural harmony, balance, and equilibrium of the universe itself.

    After all, what is cancer but a failure of entropy? Sure, it might start as a mutation of a cell. But that cell begins to reproduce, and the tissue begins to grow. If the body doesn't succeed in breaking it down and removing it faster than it grows, then it only gets bigger, until it starts to kill everything around it, eventually compromising the whole system, leading to death.

    If there were no entropy, there could be no life. Your body is constantly breaking itself down and renewing itself. The only way to eliminate death would be to eliminate entropy, but by eliminating entropy you would also eliminate life.

    Of course it's cruel and unfair that innocent children get sick and die. There's no way around that and I'm not going to try to explain it away with some callous religious tautologies. So maybe that's the difference between me and a theist.

    It's not "the mysterious work of a god whom we can't understand." It's just nature in its brutal, unfeeling aspect: red in tooth and claw. It's Murphy's Law applied to the uncompromising mechanisms which make life possible to begin with. The cold, unnegotiable cost of living in a world where the grass is green and the birds sing, where flowers bloom and the wind carries puffy clouds across the sky after a heavy rain. You didn't choose to pay it; neither did they, yet there it is. Life never came with a guarantee.

    And I'll reiterate once more that my intention here is not to make a theistic claim, but to pick apart the underlying assumptions we make when we say things like "Wouldn't it be better to live in a world without pain, illness, or death?" And it just so happens that "the problem of evil" was the perfect container for this analysis.

    So if you found it thought-provoking, I'm glad. That is the sum of all I could ask to get out of writing this.

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  • [–] 1 point 19 hours ago (3 children)

    A few of these are actually pretty common Christian points.

    part of the bargain

    God doesn't have to bargain with physical laws. He can do literally anything. He could make a universe where everything explodes randomly for no reason but wills earth to not explode because he loves us. That would be fantastic evidence for his existence and basically disprove a natural universe.

    omnipotence and omnibenevolence don't necessarily preclude suffering

    I agree, that's why I specified unnecessary suffering.

    Would you really want to live in a world where you didn't even feel sad when a loved one dies?

    There's allegedly no suffering at all in heaven, and that's the end goal for Christianity. So if you're looking down and see your descendants getting melted by a volcano you wouldn't be sad. Doesn't seem great.

    There was also allegedly little or no suffering on earth in the garden if you take Genesis literally.

    So all of this is fully within God's abilities.

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  • [–] 1 point 18 hours ago (2 children)

    I'm confused. You began your comment by saying my points are commonly made in Christianity, and then you spent the rest of your comment explaining why those same points are incompatible with Christianity?

    It's like you're trying to squeeze my words into a box they don't fit in, and then pointing out how they don't fit in that box.

    I'm not arguing from a Christian perspective. I took "the problem of evil" from the philosophy of religion as a launching point, because that was the topic of this thread. But I made it pretty clear I wasn't making a theistic argument; the closest it could have been to that would simply be in the role of devil's advocate.

    But if you look at the substance of my analysis, it's not "Some all-powerful deity can snap his fingers and change anything/everything instantaneously." It's "there are certain immutable laws of the universe which make life and existence possible, but because of those same laws, suffering and death are a package deal when you enter this world."

    The bargain isn't between "God and the Universe." It's between "You and Life." And it's this: to live within the universe is to be subject to those immutable laws. And one of those laws is entropy.

    There's no need for an omnipotent god to hold the universe together so that it doesn't explode. The laws of gravity, inertia, electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear forces, etc., they take care of that already.

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  • [–] 1 point 12 hours ago (1 child)

    I'm not sure what you're trying to argue then. I'm talking about the problem of evil, as posted in the top level comment. The problem of evil only is a problem if you believe in a tri-omni God. Otherwise, you can say "things just be like that."

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