Praxis
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[–] 238 points 1 day ago (44 children)

It's also funny how they pretend that the two actions are mutually exclusive, as if the rules of the universe won't allow you to firebomb Walmarts the minute you cast a vote. It's almost like discouraging people from voting is the actual purpose.

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  • [–] 95 points 23 hours ago* (40 children)

    This is it. You can do harm reduction in voting for the least-worst feasible candidate, while organising/protesting on issues you disagree with them on.

    E.g. In the UK, Labour is often poor on queer rights issues, but comparatively massively better than the tories/reform would be, not to mention economic and welfare policies. So I vote Labour, and attend pro-trans rights protests and criticise Labour and their stance on this issue.

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  • [+] -7 points 2 hours ago (8 children)
  • [–] 6 points 1 hour ago (7 children)

    Not voting is harm increasing tho, so you're wrong.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 hour ago (6 children)

    harm reduction is a specific thing, and voting is not that thing

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  • [–] 3 points 1 hour ago (1 child)

    Nothing is anything when you manipulate a definition to exclude what you don't want to include.

    Voting is a form of harm reduction, by reducing the damage done by a provably worse candidate. If you meant harm elimination, you're right, but perfect is the enemy of better

    Harm reduction voting in 2016 would have prevented the stacking of the courts that led to roe v wade being reversed, along with the naked destruction of our civil rights. Harm reduction voting in 2024 would have prevented the war with Iran, and would have lessened the support that the USA had behind Israel in Gaza. Anybody who says the Democrats would have been just as bad are at best stupid, and at worst, intentionally trying to accelerate a chaotic situation into a worse one in the naive hope that their preferred ideology will come out on top. And any leftist should be politically aware enough to know how that ends up...

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  • [–] 0 points 1 hour ago

    Harm reduction voting in 2016 would have prevented the stacking of the courts that led to roe v wade being reversed

    counterfactuals can't be proven, but you're still misusing the term "harm reduction"

    if people are threatened by the court system, harm reduction is finding the way those harms manifest and mitigating them specifically.

    in this case, harm reduction is clandestine abortion access. that's not something you can get by voting.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 hour ago (3 children)

    Harm reduction is the reduction of harm, ignoring whatever other niche definitions you want to pretend are more important to suit your absurd point right now, which voting generally accomplishes in a vaguely democratic system.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 hour ago (2 children)

    no harm was reduced by voting for Kamala

    no harm was reduced by voting for Biden Trump still got a second term.

    voting is not harm reduction.

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  • [+] -50 points 22 hours ago (30 children)

    You can do harm reduction in voting for the least-worst feasible candidate

    The research does not support this thesis. Policy is largely independent of popularity.

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  • [–] 43 points 22 hours ago* (7 children)

    Yeah, things like the Democratic party supporting gay marriage after it gained critical mass in popularity are a total coincidence. The policies are just random. Same thing with the the Republican party morphing overnight into a white nationalist cult who doesn’t care about deficit spending anymore. You never know where the parties are headed, and it has nothing to do with the desires of the base and who they vote for.

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  • [+] -22 points 21 hours ago* (5 children)

    No, politics is not random, politics is what economic elites want. That’s why Marxist would say it’s a “dictatorship of the bourgeoisie”.

    Here a direct quote from the famous 2014 study by Martin Gilens & Benjamin Page:

    Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.

    Disclaimer: There are sources that say this study has some oversimplifications and claim that at least “limited leverage” is possible.

    But we shouldn’t settle for just limited leverage as people. Unfortunately, neither voting nor individual arson attacks will change that.

    Instead we should see voting and (the limited effect it has on politics) as our tool to make more and more people realize that big business ruling everything isn’t an error in the system, but its core function. It always existed to protect the interest of the economic elites. We need to understand that the system has to be replaced not fixed.

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  • [–] 25 points 20 hours ago (1 child)

    Okay, but that quote doesn't support the conclusion that engaging in harm-reduction via voting is instead a bad thing. In fact, it doesn't even argue that your vote doesn't matter. The only thing it suggests - and I can't even say "proves" here, as your own disclaimer brings the validity of this study's conclusions into question - is that mass voting doesn't result in policy change from the major parties.

    Voting for the party that is going to bomb brown people, rather than the one that is going to bomb brown people, round up locals who look too brown, and de-legitimize LGBTQ+ peoples of all demographics, is harm reduction worth engaging in.

    I eagerly await the total failure of capitalism as much as the next socialist, but I am not condemning local minorities just to win some form of imagined moral high ground.

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  • [–] 1 point 14 hours ago

    I just don't think the Ds actually do harm reduction. Biden and his DOJ had the Epstein files and they did literally nothing with them. And that's just the clearest example of the enabling they do. Obama and Biden expanded ICE into what it is today and created the policy framework that Trump is using, but Biden did nothing to address it when he was president. He just opted not to use it, knowing full well what the Republicans would do because they were literally publishing treatises on what they would do. The Democrats are harm reduction like the Good Cop has your best interests at heart.

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  • [–] 9 points 20 hours ago* (2 children)

    I have had a read through that study, and I would consider the following points striking:

    1. it is entirely US-centric. Extrapolation to the entire world from this study would be pretty fruitless — in the extreme example, Switzerland is a democracy that uses referenda more than most (any?) other country, and so any policy decided by one of these by necessity follows the will of the voters (though not necessarily their interests, of course).
    2. it is focussed on a very specific period of time — between 1981 and 2002. What’s striking about that period is Reagan - Bush - Clinton - Bush – in general a rightward swing (3/4 republican, and Clinton was a ‘third way’ Democrat). Is it particularly surprising that these governments aligned with elite interests?

    To give a counter example to this study: consider the exit to the gilded age. We have a period comparable to now, where political power was bought and sold; corruption reigned. However, the government of Teddy Roosevelt made a number of moves counter to corporate interests, breaking up monopolies, reserving vast swathes of national parks, legislation protecting food and drug adulteration (note: not an unequivocal fan of TR — I am not in favour of his gunboat diplomacy).

    A more recent example: under the Biden administration, there was a significant uplift in antitrust efforts. Lina Khan was appointed to the FTC, and who knows what she could have accomplished given more time. In a UK-based example, we are (finally, thank fucking god) renationalising our public services. It is absurd to think this would have happened under the opposition.

    TLDR: democratic socialism is possible; your study is a snapshot of conservative administrations in America and — no shit — they aligned with corporate interests.

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  • [–] -3 points 14 hours ago (1 child)

    TLDR: democratic socialism is possible

    That is not at all the TLDR. Your entire argument is that outside the US voting can influence policy. No one is arguing against that, but that in no way supports the thesis that democratic socialism is possible. All of history shows that democratic socialism has never happened. There is no known path to democratic socialism at all.

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  • [–] 10 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (18 children)

    Shut the fuck up. If you don't want to vote, then don't vote. But you have no reason to try and stop others from voting.

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  • [–] 6 points 17 hours ago (17 children)

    His reason is that he thinks anything that hurts the west is good. Because his simply brain can only understand black and white binary arguments one time when he was 14 he discovered the USA are the bad guys.

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  • [+] -8 points 15 hours ago* (16 children)

    Do you think the 250 year old country founded on genocide and slavery that has only not been at war for 20 years of its history is the good guy?

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  • [–] 5 points 14 hours ago (15 children)

    Hey man I see you joined a week ago and literally all you do is argue with people.

    This isnt a healthy way to spend your time. I recommend taking up a hobby like reading or knitting

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  • [+] -7 points 14 hours ago (14 children)

    Lmao, please Adress the contents of my comment.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 hours ago* (1 child)

    I know you desperately want to get into an internet argument with a random stranger, but no, sorry, I'm not going to indulge you in a pointless shouting match. But given you've made a hundred comments arguing with people in the last day, I'm sure you'll get your fix elsewhere.

    Even this is a bit too much, so I'm just going to ignore your comments going forward. Reply if you want, I know it will be hard to resist, but I won't answer.

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  • [–] 6 points 13 hours ago (11 children)

    I’ll do that! The contents of your comment are garbage, baby-brained bullshit. Next!

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  • [–] -4 points 13 hours ago (10 children)

    Do you think the 250 year old country founded on genocide and slavery that has only not been at war for 20 years of its history is the good guy?

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  • [–] 2 points 11 hours ago* (9 children)

    I don’t think a 250 year old country is a “guy”, good or bad.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 hours ago (8 children)
  • [–] 2 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (7 children)

    My reply may sound evasive to you, but it has a point. To the extent that the world has “good guys” and “bad guys” (goddamn baby brain, you), they are people, not countries. Every country contains both, and the composition changes over time.

    You really think you made an argument worth engaging with, so there you go.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 hours ago (6 children)

    Jesus christ man, yeah I was trying to keep it simple for you guys.

    Let's rephrase. Do you think that the country I described is a positive force on the world worth continuing?

    Keeping in mind that it's at the cost of millions of innocent lives in the global south.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (5 children)

    What would the country ceasing to continue look like? Are we advocating for a different genocide here?

    Maybe what we want is for certain actions to cease. For “bad guys” to not be in charge anymore.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 hours ago (4 children)

    ??? Is all you people know genocide?

    Do you think when Nazi Germany fell we just used the ovens on the rest of the Germans? Every single human being in the USSR was thrown into the ocean when it ceased to be a country?

    Jesus christ man, read a fucking history book.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (3 children)

    Sounds more like the second scenario I mentioned. Germany still exists, but with better people in power.

    I think we agree, we just have different ways of expressing ourselves. I too would like for “bad America” to cease to exist, and for “good America” to take its place.

    I just had to put myself in the mind of a toddler to communicate with you.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 hour ago (2 children)

    I'm sure you think like a toddler all the time, big guy.

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