ou might have seen that we've been defederated from beehaw.org. I think there's some necessary context to understand what this means to the users on this instance.
How federation works
The way federation works is that the community on beehaw.org is an organization of posts, and you're subscribed to it despite your account being on lemmy.world. Now someone posts on that community (created on beehaw.org), on which server is that post hosted?
It's hosted on both! It's hosted on any instance that has a subscriber. It's also hosted on lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml, etc. Every instance that has a subscriber is going to have a copy of this post. That's why if you host your own instance, you'll often get a ton of text data just in your own server.
And the copies all stay in sync with each other using ActivityPub. So you're reading the post that's host on lemmy.world, and someone with an account on beehaw.org is reading the same post on beehaw.org, and the posts are kept in sync via ActivityPub. Whenever someone posts to that community or comments on a post, that data is shared to all the versions across the fediverse, and these versions are kept in sync. So up until 5 hours ago, they were the same post!
"True"-ness
A key concept that will matter in the next section is the idea of a "true" version. Effectively, one version of these posts is the "true" version, that every other community reflects. The "true" version is the one hosted on the instance that hosts the community. So the "true" version of a beehaw.org community post is the one actually hosted on beehaw.org. We have a copy, but ours is only a copy. If you post to our copy, it updates the "true" version on beehaw.org, and then all the other instances look to the "true" version on beehaw to update themselves.
The same goes for communities hosted on lemmy.world or lemmy.ml. Defederation affects how information is shared between instances. If you keep track of where the "true" version is hosted, it becomes a lot easier to understand what is going on.
How defederation works
Now take that example post from earlier, the one on beehaw.org. The "true" version of the post is on beehaw.org but the post is still hosted on both instances (again, it has a copy hosted on all instances). Let's say someone with an account on beehaw.org comments on that post. That comment is going to be sent to every version of that post via ActivityPub, as the "true" version has been updated. That is, every version EXCEPT lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. So users on lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works won't get that comment, because we've been defederated from beehaw.org. If we write a comment, it will only be visible from accounts on lemmy.world, because we posted to a copy, but our copy is now out of sync with the "true" version. So we can appear to interact with the post, but those interactions are ONLY visible by other lemmy.world accounts, since our comments aren't send to other versions. As the "true" version is hosted on beehaw, and we no longer get beehaw updates due to defederation, we will not see comments from ANY other community on those posts (including from other defederated instances like sh.itjust.works).
The same goes for posting to beehaw communities. We can still do that. However, the "true" version of those communities are the ones on beehaw, so our posts will not be shared to other instances via ActivityPub. And all of this is true for Beehaw users with our communities. Beehaw users can continue to see and interact with Lemmy.world communities, but those interactions are only visible to other Beehaw users, since the "true" versions of the Lemmy.world communities (the ones sent to/synced with every other instance) is the Lemmy.world one.
Communities on other instances, for example lemmy.ml, are unaffected by this. Lemmy.world and beehaw.org users will still be able to interact with those communities, but posts/comments from lemmy.world users won't be visible to beehaw.org users, as defederation prevents our posts/comments from being sent to the version of these posts hosted on beehaw.org. However, as the "true" version is the one on the third instance, we can still see everything from beehaw.org users. So we see a more filled in version than the beehaw users.
Why can I still see posts/comments from beehaw users?
Until they defederated us, posts/comments were being sent to lemmy.world, so we can see everything from before defederation. After defederation, we are no longer receiving or sending updates. So there are now multiple versions of those posts.
Why can I still interact with beehaw communities?
This won't ever stop. You'll notice that all posts after defederation are only from lemmy.world users. You won't see posts/comments from ANY other instance (including instances that ) on beehaw.org communities.
Those communities will quickly suck for us, as we're only talking to other lemmy.world users. Your posts/comments are not being sent to any other lemmy. I highly recommend just unsubscribing from those communities, since they're pretty pointless for us to be in right now.
Why do I still see comments from beehaw users on lemmy.world communities?
Again, comments from before defederation were still sent to us. After defederation, it will no longer be possible for beehaw users to interact with the "true" version of lemmy.world communities. Their posts/comments are not being sent to any other lemmy. They also aren't getting updates from any other lemmy, as the "true" version of those communities is on our instance.
Why do I see posts/comments from beehaw users on communities outside lemmy.world and beehaw.org?
That's because the "true" version of those posts is outside beehaw. So we get updates from those posts. And lemmy.world didn't defederate beehaw, so posts/comments from beehaw users can still come to versions hosted on lemmy.world.
The reverse is not true. Because beehaw defederate lemmy.world, any post/comment from a lemmy.world users will NOT be sent to the beehaw version of the post.
This seems like it's worse for beehaw users than for us?
Yes. In my opinion, this is an extraordinarily dumb act by the beehaw instance owners. It's worse for beehaw users than for us, and will likely result in many beehaw users leaving that instance. They said in their post that this is a nuke, but I don't think they fully assessed the blast area. Based on their post, I don't think they fully understand what defederation does.
There are other, less heavy handed ways of accomplishing the same thing
This action doesn't actually do what they want it to do, since anyone can create a new instance and post,
This action does more to make the experience of their users worse
So yes, admins choosing to defederate another instance despite not understanding what that actually does and what the consequences of that action are is, as I said, dumb.
@AgentGoldfish Did you read what _they_ wrote about the decision to defederate?
He either didn't or is intentionally ignoring the points they made and his aggressive responses here are just riling people up even more instead of focusing us on the actual problem or solutions. People are literally calling beehaw admins "vile" and "despicable" just because they are trying to handle this unexpected and possibly undesired huge influx of people, when their community existed before any of these newcomers arrived (myself included) and their primary concern should be preserving their community and ethos.
This is specifically the type of behavior that beehaw's rules aim to prevent, which is why they are more heavily moderated and why they had to defederate lemmyworld in the first place. The fact that OP is unable to understand this and is instead trying to start a lynch mob just makes me think that a temporary defederation was absolutely the right call to make for them.
right? it wasn't anywhere near a big deal or an insult to other instances
it's "we don't have the resources to handle any possible bad actors from big instances with loose registration requirements, so we're defederating from them until we feel that we can handle it"
the correct response to this is "oh, okay; hope they figure it out such that they can federate with us again in the future"; people are blowing this out of proportion
I don't know if I would want to use Bee in future honestly. I've been getting "holier than thou" vibes from a lot of bee users and the only time I have felt even slightly uncomfortable is when users are coming here attacking lemmy.world. I have felt very welcomed and invited and respected in this community - until the day that beehaw decided we are undesirables and not welcome and decided they wanted to classify my new cyber home as a pit full of degenerates.
This whole experience is leaving a sour taste in mouth after what was a very positive first day. I made a community started posting content in it and everything. Now, I honestly don't know if I want to continue.
All you people gaslighting us and acting like we aren't allowed to be upset or annoyed about this action is only making me like Beehaw less.
bro, its not gaslighting
no one said youre not allowed to be upset, you just have to deal with it as the nature of this specific platform. it may suck but thats life.
just gotta interact with other communities, bring the vibes up in other communities and it will soon no longer matter
How is it nonsense? Beehaw has decided that our entire instance is unfit for wider consumption. They have labelled as as degenerates and walled off our content to keep people safe. If people are out there sabotaging our image and making things up about my new community where everyone has been extremely positive and kind and supportive then yes i am going to be upset about that.
These divisions that exist weren't created by me. It was beehaw who quite literally divided us. I'm just annoyed about it, which I have every right to be, because it's a terrible decision with little thought involved and harms the entire service as a whole. Honestly, at this point, I can't help but wonder if they're deliberately sabotaging the platform under the guise of positivity.
its not gas lighting. the term “gaslighting” to refer to a specific type of manipulation where the manipulator is trying to get someone else (or a group of people) to question their own reality, memory or perceptions.
the bees aint making you question reality
what they are doing may be a mistake and misguided, but again, this is a decentralized/federated social media platform. they get to do that
the beauty of it, if we can focus on the communities in lemmy.world and other places that are federated here, it wont matter in the end. you will still be serviced content and comments
i dunno man, its not personal is all im sayin
lol ok man sure
ill leave you be i guess, im not here to argue
but its objectively not gaslighting
because you are super mischaracterizing what ive said. i disagree with your opinion, thats true
i didnt undermine anything, i disagree with your statements
i told you what the definition of a specific abusive psychological technique, which you are not experiencing on behalf of a different instance
im not uncomfortable at all, i just dont want to upset you. which it seems you are
i am not making you question reality, i disagree with your opinions
beehaw can do whatever they want with their instance, that is literally the point of this platform
its not a personal attack on anyone here
is it dumb? maybe
but its not making you crazy
why are you so upset in general? have people said you couldnt be upset about it? or were people trying to explain something about a pretty new piece of software? i
ive looked through your history and its very aggravated.
you do know that i cannot deny you your feelings, no matter how hard i might try? im just a UN somewhere in the world, your feelings are real and your own
you can keep using gaslighting incorrectly too, i aint the word police, but you are using the word objectively incorrectly. which im a sucker for letting people know
but maybe you should think about how your presenting yourself. believe what you want about whatever dude, but you do post here publicly, which implies your willing to have discussion about your opinions
lol maybe this is why beehaw peaced out
you are allowed!
but i dont agree with you
you see the difference right?
ive been in the same threads and I have seen none of what you're talking about, even looked through your history
mostly it seems to be people trying to reasonably explain thats the game we're playing. they get to do that, and they will not be the only one. Federation and all this is a fairly new thing, there will be pains like this going forward.
in addition, they have not made it permanent. it was about their carefully crafted community. is that lame? maybe, but thats the point of a decentralized platform. Their admins get ultimate control, lemmy.world gets the same freedom
and further more, the whole reason this spat started was your claim of gaslighting happening to you because of some commenters disagreeing with your opinions. which that doesnt fit the definition of the very serious and very damaging technique
how am i being invalidating and disrespectful?
you are upset, thats ok! i dont think thats invalidating. you get to feel however you want, it is annoying that day 2 of my being here there is already some drama
i just dont agree thats its something to be that upset about or to the severity of the problem
its not blackmail, its not gaslighting, nor emotional manipulation
i just dont agree with the opinions you have stated
quote me
i never said that at all. i have done nothing but respect you and your feelings about this matter, while giving you my quite reasonable take
i know we dont have to agree, thats why were not in the walled garden right? i welcome opinions that are different than mine, but you also have to respect what im saying right?
which it certainly doesnt feel like your giving me any benefit of doubt or anything. just assume im just some jerk
well i still dont see disrespect or invalidation of they way you feel, unless defederation makes you question what is real around you, which i guess i assumed you didnt feel "crazy or insane" due to people disagreeing with you
and did you even read that thread? this is what you replied to that i saw
how was that gaslighting or disrespectful to the way you felt about it. where am i being disrespectful, outside of disagreeing with you?
Edit: furthermore aren't you doin the same thing
a reply of yours further down
are you not, by your definition gaslighting them?
You know, I keep hearing this, but it's beehaw people coming here and starting arguments. If it's not a problem, then why are people getting annoyed? Beehaw is allowed to defederate if they really think so, but we don't have to pretend like it's a smart decision. And, at the end of the day, it only hurts them more than anyone else.
The only thing I'm seeing in these lemmyworld threads is people being extremely hostile and rude towards beehaw admins, not showing an ounce of understanding for what is probably a very difficult situation for them too. Not to mention that most of them are brand new accounts as well, calling out admins that have been developing the community and managing beehaw for over a year. In less then a week people with 0 patience or empathy are already drawing lines in the sand instead of trying to help and work towards a solution instead.
I don't believe you to be honest. I haven't seen any hostility towards beehaw admins, or any toxicity whatsoever on the fediverse at all, whether lemmy.world or otherwise. You claim that the only thing you see is people being extremely hostile. So where are they?
https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/24341/How-the-beehaw-defederation-affects-us#entry-comment-125843 Calling it a "bitch" move
https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/24341/How-the-beehaw-defederation-affects-us#entry-comment-121608 "an incredibly selfish, disphit move"
https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/24341/How-the-beehaw-defederation-affects-us#entry-comment-106166 calling the admins "dumb" for their decision by the OP of this thread
https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/24341/How-the-beehaw-defederation-affects-us#entry-comment-98246 calling it "vile" with that whole chain devolving into weird allegories and innuendos
My threads are getting messed up and im seeing tons of duplicate or unorganized posts so ill stop here. Besides browse it yourself for the general atmosphere, you're seeing the same content I do and I'm not sure why are you oblivious to this and the general vibe here.
Maybe that says more about the communities you choose to interact with than lemmy. I notice every link you posted is from kbin, and not lemmy - i've never even been to a kbin server myself.
Kbin is my local instance from which I am browsing, the links lead to posts made by authors from other instances too. The very first one is from lemmy.world for example.
Not sure how it matters for the discussion even if what you said were true though.
The links are a little confusing looking, but they're to (or meant to be to) comments from some Lemmy folks across a few different instances. First & third are lemmy.world, second is lemmy.pt, and fourth is from programming.dev.
I Those were my thoughts to. The hostility here, I had a strong feeling it was beehaws admins
Yeah I did. That's why I think they don't fully understand what defederation entails. It doesn't accomplish the goals they set out in their decision post, and does have a whole bunch of knock on effects (for their own users) that they don't address at all.
@AgentGoldfish Actually, i think you don't understand what defederation really means.
Heck, it's a completely normal and legal act in the #fediverse. Just search for the fediblock hashtag and find out.
All those defederations have their reasons and while they surely partition the "remaining fediverse" on one way or another, they actually establish the resilience to keep our shared virtual living room free of assholes, racists, fascists and other ppl we don't actually like to read alldays in _our_ stream..
So ... Do i really need to cite XKCD here?
Yes, it is _really_ that simple.
Like I told the other dude, I don't care what beehaw does. I was just explaining the consequences of this action for the users on this instance. Why are you even here? You aren't in this instance.
I think this action is bad for the adoption of lemmy, that's why I don't like it. Beyond that, the beehaw admins can do what they like. If they want to nuke their walled garden/prison, that's their prerogative. I'm just saying what a bad idea I think it is.
You are misinforming people based on your own bias and agenda.
We've got a real community builder here folks, just what the fediverse needs.
@AgentGoldfish Well ... i'm in the #fediverse ... and while lemmy actually fails to deliver the rest of this thread over to my friendica instance..
We are still all together in the same #fediverse.
So i'm talking to you as fedinaut and netizen of .. the fediverse.
Like anyone can do...
That's called 'federation' ;)
Maybe read my post on lemmy.world (or another lemmy instance) that all of these are comments on before you make a bunch of assumptions.
@AgentGoldfish I don't assume _that_ much. I see you complaining about beehaw admins making the fediverse worse for their users.. because?
You fail to deliver any reason, why they should tolerate the bulk of your users violating their netiquette.
That's where and why i call that whining.
Like: @[email protected] lemmy.world/comment/206887 says here.
It is about choice and you have absolutely no right at all to attack their decision and rights in this way....
You call the action they did as "extraordinarily dumb".
I told you, that the possibility is way higher, that the dumb decision was on your side in the first place.
Dude, it's funny that you are "defending" beehaws decision but literally sound like the kind of person that cause them to do it in the first place. Not saying that you are, but you definitely give that kind of vibe to me with the way you comment and format your "arguments".
Also, don't you understand that both can be true: beehaw admins having honest and best intentions for their own community but also not understanding fully the consequences of their actions? It doesn't have to be either one or the other.
They even said that they are not very technical and it seems they are aware they might be throwing the baby with the bath water for now until they figure things out.
It is just being pointed out that they might be making a mistake especially that this post is addressed to lemmy.world and other federated instances not really at beehaw (although they will probably be aware of it).
which was like the point of federation, at least with Lemmy; it gives instance owners the choice of who to associate with
@AgentGoldfish Communities and instances, especially here in the #fediverse, have their own netiquettes and rules..... You obviously got called out for disregarding the rules of other instances....
Stop whining and do something about it. ;)
I obviously didn't. I like how you just assuming I'm some internet asshole. All I did was write out an explanation for the users of this instance because there was a lot of confusion about what defederation means. Maybe stop being a jerk and making assumptions?
I never said beehaw wasn't allowed to do what they're doing, of course they are. You're the one making that assumption. I said that this will result in more damage to beehaw than to lemmy.world, and it will do more damage still to lemmy as a whole.