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Just a reminder (thelemmy.club)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/16451158

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[–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (14 children)

You are clearly unable to connect it to anything I said.

As I already stated your extremely narrow view of what fascism is prevents you from seeing. You take this as being vague or nonspecific. I totally get that.

I provided multiple examples of my own as well as modern definitions of fascism even from people you sourced. This is ultimately a disagreement over semantics.

I thought you had the answer to your own question. Perhaps I was wrong, my apologies.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (13 children)

    You never connected the concepts. Demanding structural rigor is not a "narrow view". This is the bare minimum required for a coherent framework.

    Your examples are historical anecdotes of state violence that completely fail to differentiate fascism from standard capitalism or imperialism operating at the core of a liberal state. Every example you mentioned that is bad about the US can easily be explained without fascism. Flattening these distinct systems into a single category requires ignoring the core arguments of the very thinkers you are citing and renders the term meaningless.

    Your interpretation of how corporations connect to fascism completely misunderstands Mussolini’s actual model of corporatism. I have pointed this out three times now, and you have yet to address it.

    I have not provided my own definition of fascism because my view isn't the subject of the critique. I am challenging you to account for the internal consistency of yours. Yet another thing I have stated and you continue to fail to grasp.

    Reducing a fundamental structural and temporal breakdown of political mechanics to a mere "disagreement over semantics" just confirms that you are unwilling to do the work to map your own thesis.

    Your invective responses are just thin veneers for your rhetorical dodging and inability to wrestle with real structural mechanics in actual history.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (12 children)

    And we are back to saying fascism doesn't exist because I can't connect the dots in your head. sigh

    Edit: Just to be clear Fascism didn't start in Italy.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (10 children)

    And we are back to saying fascism doesn't exist because I can't connect the dots in your head. sigh

    Fixed that for you.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (9 children)

    Corporatism predates Mussolini by almost a hundred years.

    The only person who pretends not to connect the dots is you.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (8 children)

    Corporatism predates Mussolini by almost a hundred years.

    What's your point?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (7 children)

    Corporatism and fascism both predate fascist WWII Italy. Corporatism, in regards to guilds had come to an end and transitioned to corporations and unions in the early 20th century. Guild socialism had given way to its succesor corporatism. Authoritarians found out that state sanctioned monopolies would work just as well with fascism as it did with democratic socialism.

    This was a rejection of both Marxism and Liberalism although fascist leaning countries continue to use these philosophies as a facade for governance as can be seen by the US and Russia. Red Fascism and the creation of the term totalitarianism was a criticism which meaning was quickly lost when it was converted into anti-communist propaganda by other fascist loving nations in their bid to control the world economy.

    Which industrialized country helped build up Italian and Nazi fascist empires. It is the same country that was formed purely by the wealthy's business interests, the first truly fascist nation that helped spread fascism around the world. The same nation that walked away after WWI and then helped build the fascist empires of WWII.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (6 children)

    Do any post feudal states exist without a fascist valence?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (5 children)

    Not sure about Fascism existing in any appreciable form during the end of the feudal period in Western Europe. Russia's feudal period lasted much longer and did not end until the middle of the 19th century. I read an article about it.

    https://carnegieendowment.org/russia-eurasia/research/2011/02/ending-feudalism-the-150th-anniversary-of-the-emancipation-of-the-serfs

    I think this is a great example of social reform without violence, but I don't think Russia was Fascist at the time even if there may have been some fascist elements to their society. Later on around 1900 there was the Union of Russian people and the Black Hundreds which were arguably proto-fascist.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (4 children)

    Not sure about Fascism existing in any appreciable form during the end of the feudal period in Western Europe.

    Would you mind checking? In France there were the Terrors and Bonaparte; in England, there was the East India Companies; in the Netherlands, there was the conquest of spice and the Banda Massacre; in Germany and Italy, there were militaristic state unifications; and in Spain, there was the Inquisition and the Carlist Wars.

    Are these the instances of 'appreciable form of fascist valence' you mean?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    France is one of the epicenters of fascism for sure and France itself is a fascist nation supplying weapons to the world. You ever listen to their national anthem.

    England spread its imperialism far and wide and birthed a nation that went on to cause more damage than any nation before it.

    The East India Corporation invented corporate lobbying and was instrumental to the rise of corporations.

    The Netherland, in particular the Dutch, once held the reserve currency before England took over it and caused massive suffering through the Dutch East India Corporation.

    Yes, a lot of these nations laid the ground work for what we would consider modern day fascism and they have fascist tendencies to this day. As I said in the beginning, the entire world became fascist with the US toppling democracies and instituting fascism whenever and wherever it could. Seventy countries that we know about but I can guarantee the US had its hands in many more than this.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    the entire world became fascist

    If the entire world became fascist, where does a stable, non-imperialist country like Cape Verde or Costa Rica fit into your framework? Are they fascist too, or are there actual non-fascist societies today?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    Costa Rica is far less fascist having no standing army than most nations. Their history is disheartening in the past, but they have made several reforms and are currently rated highly by human rights organization.

    On the other hand, they have been vassalized by the US long ago and have recently helped with their human rights abuses. I suppose they don't have much choice when faced with the manipulative power of the fascist US.

    Also, remember fascism is a scale not all or nothing.

    While it has been fun playing sow the doubt of fascism and that fascism is really just another word for X (hard to tell what that word is for you). I am afraid you have never really made any sort of point in a long time or ever really.

    I suppose you just don't want to share your unique wisdom with me. Perhaps you will share it with someone else someday. Cheers!

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