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Grass is always greener
(thelemmy.club)
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this post was submitted on 29 Jun 2026
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There are a lot of countries that boast many family benefits, but their fertility and birth rates are still falling. Like Finland.
I don't think this is a real problem. Women having more choice over when they have children is what is affecting the rates. That's not a problem I think we should solve.
Finland threw a small amount at the problem. France had the most all around approach that did show results, but it is still not enough.
Populations are going to decline. The elites are more interested in fighting over who gets to keep their stuff than on any consequences that might have for the world.
There have been several countries to throw money at this problem and it doesn't really help. The root of the "issue" is women having more control over their own bodies and reproductive health. Women are choosing to delay having children and having as many children, which isn't a problem at all except for the ruling class.
The question remains, did they do it right. The easiest way to fuck it up would be to means test it and mire it in bureaucracy or have some kinda of grift.
In Iran, after the revolution, the Khomeini called for more children and population growth quickly moved to 4%. Then in the 2000 they did some campaign "two children are enough" bla bla and it worked as well. This is evidence that just simple messaging, together with the general socio-economic conditions, can have a drastic impact.
So I don't quite believe what you're implying, that it can't be solved through money. It's just similar to climate change, the costs are immense.
A fundamental issue with quality of life today is that both parents HAVE TO work today and neither can stay at home to actually raise the children. What kind of life is that? Since the dawn of time it was that women stayed at home and could watch the children at least for half the day. Today it should be either husband or wife staying at home. The other thing is that "outside" is no longer a public place for children to roam and play.
These things are very simple to change and it's not complicated, it just takes a lot of money and will. And generally it goes against the interest of capitalists.
Immigration is much easier.
Wow, would you look at that. This entire study goes into the details of the boom and bust of population growth in Iran and what a fucking SHOCKER.
It has to do with reproductive health and family planning and marriage age of women. Other factors as well, but y'all looooove to say it's just a money issue when it's not. It has everything to do with women's freedoms.
Alright alright lol that is the better study.
And I'm not saying it's just money, but also just "earnest" messaging can have effects. If it's coupled with socio economic conditions.
And right now we're facing inevitable climate change, escalating wealth inequality, very high inflation, war in Europe with an outlook of more war, a huge refugee wave looming, automation and AI relegating job security to a historical concept, uncertainties about future horrors technology, social media effecting how people perceive reality... so obviously it's not just that.
And yeah, I agree, many women today don't want to curtail their careers by dropping out of their job for a decade. But that is also at least partially a manufactured attitude through advertising and PR and can be changed. Except it's counter to capitalism.
But I'd be curious why you think money alone couldn't solve this fertility crisis. Or what could. I highly doubt any western country has offered enough money that would make up for giving up the second income.
Because women don’t just need money to have as many children as society wants.
Women don’t want to have as many children as society demands.
And unless we’re going to take away birth control and abortions and reproductive health options and continue to allow child marriage, I don’t think this is a trend we’re going to reverse quickly if at all.
And personally? That simply isn’t an option that should be considered.
It's not about just giving women more money to have children, it's investing money to create a society that is more conducive to having children. My main point is that whatever they spend to increase fertility, it wasn't enough.
The counter argument to increase spending is just to increase immigration and not increasing spending. At least outside japan lol.
I honestly don’t think there’s any amount of money, given to women or invested into society, that is going to significantly change women to want as many kids as they were forced to have in the past. Not without taking away reproductive rights and lemme tell you, they are trying really really hard to do exactly that in many places right now.
Immigration is a real solution to some of this. But it’s so much easier to hate immigrants and subjugate women, amiright?
Yeah, hate is shockingly easy to sell. And cheap to manufacture. Late stage capitalism.
Just to be clear, I'm not even arguing that we "need" to have more children, or that we need immigration. We need degrowth of GDP instead. We should reduce population density in e.g. Europe. Increase urban density in the US. We can also economically degrow and drastically reduce energy and resource use while at the same time increasing standards of living for everyone.
All that are reasons that would influence wanting to have children too. Maybe it's not as simple as I make it out to be, but I believe fundamentally it's not an issue. If we actually thought "we'll need to have more babies or humanity will be in trouble" some extraordinary heroic women would step up lol. But that's the last thing we need right now.
I'd be interested in knowing more about the type of contraceptives and reproductive health the women had access to during these times. You can't just point to that and say it's because of messaging.
You don't have to believe me, it's playing out right now. There are plenty of countries offering monetary compensation for people to have more children and it barely affects the numbers.
The root of the fall is because women have more control over when and how many children they have.
Why not build better lives for the existing billions rather than make more billions? This is what I don't get. Kids born today are going to die in the water wars or of heat stroke. No thanks.
because capitalism demands infinite growth and the only way to actually achieve that growth is to have more humans
Makes no sense at all to a logically thinking person. Nothing is infinite. Except maybe space.
Because forcing people to not have children is just as cruel as forcing people to have children.
Who said anyone's forcing them not to? If they want, go ahead. Its just going to be an awful life for that kid unless youre a billionaire.
There's a lot to enjoy about life.
It's possible to talk about issues without punching down on other people and their choices.
Oh sure, I mean I never said people can't do what they want. But more and more are choosing no kids. Either ways fine! I myself dont really believe in more people when we have hundreds of millions who are starving to death, thats just me. If we could all live in a utopia, sure utd be a great life. But we dont
It’s really negative to push that all children that exist today are doomed to suffer for their entire lives and it’s all their parents fault for creating them.
Thanks for this comment. Everyone gets to choose what’s best for them and I prefer to respect that, especially for things like kids that aren’t really a choice people can undo, you know?
I am by nature a realist and negative, not that I'm depressed, I just see it how it is. Now can we change the world? Well, with most humans intellect today, I'm inclined to say no, we can't. But we can hope at least.
Right, I want people to have the choice and also be educated to know how their choices affect others.
Maybe youre not in America so you have a more positive outlook than I!
Hahahaha I am in the US. Not every single facet of life here is miserable.
Oh for sure, I'm actually super lucky in that i live in a low cost of living area with a great job and most economical or environmental disasters rarely affect this part of the country because no one cares about it. I feel bad for many other Americans though who dont have this luxury.
I agree it's not a problem. It's even more ridiculous when media talks about the costs of caring for the elderly but ignore the costs to raise children are greater than costs to care for the elderly. A shrinking population is great for everyone but the ownership class.
Remember, if oligarchs, right-wing politicians, and billionaires consider something a problem, NO IT FUCKING ISN'T!
Right, I agree, but this conversation always misses the underlying reasons why this is happening:
Women having the freedom to control when we have children.
That's what is truly under attack when the ruling class is pushing for more and more babies. Everyone only wants to talk about the class war on this topic, but they're missing the bigger picture.