my point, which spawned the conversation, was that mountain climbing and cave diving are far far more dangerous than rock climbing, which I don't really think is up for debate. Someone just took that to mean "rock climbing is not dangerous as all" which is a separate statement.

Kind of like that "oh so you hate waffles" meme.

You never let anyone who you don't trust belay you ever, that's given.

I like auto-belays, since those are guaranteed to be serviced regularly in good gyms. But at one point they are not enough, and you need a partner that you can trust your life with.

But I keep telling people that climbing reponsibly indoors is safer than many other activities, simply because you are aware of risks and are equiped to handle almost everything. Which is not the case for many outdoor activities.

I've seen a rock fall next to the belayers from the top, and only survived because the climbers fall pulled them closer to the wall, narrowly missing the head. They did not have a helmet on.