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It's the Imperium of MAN not the Imperium of THEY. (hexbear.net)
submitted 3 years ago by to c/games@hexbear.net
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[–] 55 points 3 years ago (45 children)

I'd like to have this person watch Starship Troopers and then write an essay on what it's about.

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  • [–] 30 points 3 years ago (39 children)

    They'd probably think it was about how fascism is good. It doesn't go far enough imo.

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  • [–] 49 points 3 years ago (37 children)

    You can explicitly make the fascists into cartoon villains like Star Wars and still get people doing the "empire did nothing wrong" larp and unironically making support for fascists their identity through it.

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  • [–] 26 points 3 years ago* (35 children)

    To be clear I want a 20 minute long presentation and the start and end of the movie explaining that the federation are the bad guys, why their systems do not work, as well as an overview of the horrors of fascism. During the movie, the fascists must be depicted to be fundamentally wrong. Bonus points for them also constantly being portrayed as incompetent, by eg slipping on a banana peel every 20 seconds (and then being eaten by a bug, which are explicitly communist and also good).

    EDIT: This unironically

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  • [–] 29 points 3 years ago (30 children)

    I think the issue is that you shouldn't make fascists "fun" or "cool" in any way whatsoever.

    In both Star Wars and Troopers the fascists are undeniably fun and entertaining to ride along with. Fun, cool or entertaining things inevitably make people want to imitate or copy-cat them for funsies, and this rubs off into personal identity.

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  • [–] 22 points 3 years ago (7 children)

    The only movies that portrayed Nazis correctly are the Indiana Jones movies and Come and See. One for portraying the Nazis as a bunch of incompetent buffoons and the other for portraying the Nazis as a bunch of incompetent genocidal buffoons.

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  • [–] 22 points 3 years ago (5 children)

    This is totally correct and nobody wants to imitate being those nazis as a result.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 years ago (4 children)

    Verhoeven should have made Doogie Howzer's character into a fucking clown with a superiority complex that does stupid shit on camera while barking about how smart he is. That may have saved us decades of budding nazis getting unintentional inspiration.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    "Everybody Fights, No One Quits."

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  • [–] 11 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    That would have definitely gotten the intended message across better and force UKIP to stan a different movie.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 years ago

    Reposting one of my old comments:

    Fundamentally satire of fascism doesn't work because fascist ideology revolves around the idea that you're a loser made weak by the removed other but can be made strong and cool by doing all the violence.

    If fight club had a scene where Tyler Durden tried to ask a girl out in queue to the McDonald's breakfast menu, pissed himself out of nervousness, and then broke into tears in front of everyone. All that would change is there'd be a fascist org called Piss Boys whose initiation would involve drink a lot of water before queuing up for the world's greasiest hash browns.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 years ago (21 children)

    I entirely agree, if fascists are to be portrayed at all it should be as buffoons and idiots, because nobody will want to be seen as a buffoon and idiot.

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  • [–] 35 points 3 years ago (18 children)

    Which is why my biggest critique of 40k will always be James Workshop are too much of cowards to let another faction be a decent fucking foil for the satire of the Imperium. So long as the fash-inclined fans can circle back around to "Well the Imperium may be bad, but it's worse everywhere else!" you've lost as a satirist. Stop ass-pulling Ws for the blueberries so they always come out on top smelling like roses so you can sell more toys, and actually stand by the idea that there is a viable alternative to human fascism in your fictional setting; instead of leaving that to the interpretation of the most media illiterate people in the history of the concept.

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  • [–] 25 points 3 years ago (8 children)

    They had a chance with the Tau but then went full gommulist mind control and sterilization of humans. I'd argue the Eldar are still probably better since they more or less have FALGSC, and them not caring about the lives of the xenocidal fascists doesn't make them evil, it makes them correct.

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  • [–] 21 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    I have a soft spot for the Orks. Yes, they’re brutal and violent, seemingly without much reason, but I think they’re just vibing with the senseless brutality of the rest of the galaxy. If everyone else was more chill I bet the Orks would be hanging out, partying, fixing up machines for fun, building skateparks and rollercoasters, that sort of thing. They seem like they have the least amount of overt malice or ambition for power. They’re in it for love of the game, and I think there’s an argument that that makes them the least worst out of all of them.

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  • [–] 19 points 3 years ago* (3 children)

    One. The Eldar do have a superior society than the Imperium of man so I agree on that front.

    On the other hand even with some of the darker aspects the T´au as a faction are still a much better society than the IoM with a focus on collectivism and unity. Like being a human auxillary/civilian on a T´au controlled world is vastly superior to living in the hellhole that is the IoM.

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  • [–] 17 points 3 years ago* (2 children)

    This concept was introduced after fans complained that the initial T'au codex described the T'au in too much of a positive light, and that they were too "good" for the grim, dark Warhammer 40,000 universe. This also led to the introduction of the Vespid Communion Helms, which have a much clearer Orwellian feel that the Vespid are being directly manipulated by the T'au thanks to the helmets that are supposedly for "communication purposes."

    Very cool of you james workshop

    I originally thought the caste system was "problematic" enough to leave the Tau as visibly "Better" but still with hangups but they had to go and do it to 'em anyway.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 years ago

    The T´au allow humans freedom of faith btw. There are humans in the Tau Empire that still worship the God Emperor (if in a less zealous manner) that also follow the greater good.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 years ago (8 children)

    I don’t disagree with your assessment, but I’m sad that the 40K universe can’t be interpreted for what it is. The whole point is that there are no good guys, only flavors of galaxy-scale horror. It makes sense from a game design standpoint because you’re supposed to give up the idea that you’re furthering a righteous cause or participating in an evolving narrative. You’re just controlling an army against another army in one of countless battles that have no real consequence because there’s always another army and another battle. They state it right up front: “In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.” In that context, there can’t be any good guys, just different factions in an endless struggle.

    But yeah, they don’t do a good enough job of reminding fans that the Imperium is only relatable because it has a human face, and is otherwise indistinguishable from any of the other factions in terms of being comically evil.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 years ago (7 children)

    The whole point is that there are no good guys, only flavors of galaxy-scale horror.

    The most common result of that presentation is consumers choosing the most "based" of bad guys with the most exciting aesthetics and slowly seeing those bad guys as the good guys after all.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (6 children)

    Which I think is fine, honestly, so long as it doesn’t bleed into reality. It’s like having a favorite sports team. It’s all fun and games until it becomes a personality trait.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 years ago (5 children)

    so long as it doesn’t bleed into reality

    That's the yea part to me. Just being in an online chat room somewhere, like in an online game, and having the slightest LGBTQIA+ presence brought up (often in a baiting way, unfortunately) and getting shouted down with "suffer not the" and "exterminatus" references is Jokerfying to me. joker-amerikkklap

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  • [–] 5 points 3 years ago (4 children)

    As well it should be. That’s some bullshit. As I said, I don’t disagree that the Warhammer fanbase is full of trash people, I just wish it weren’t. The underlying source material isn’t inherently bad, but it’s often appropriated by the worst kind of people.

    That’s the reason I stopped playing a long time ago. I’d like to enjoy the hobby for what it is, but I don’t want to interact with a lot of the people who I would end up playing with. Same with most gaming hobbies, save for things like TTRPGs or cooperative/PvE multiplayer games where I can still get the full experience even if I’m only playing with people I know.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    I play 40k (DA ORKZ IS PROPPA GITZ) but it's a rare day where there isn't at least one "just kidding, unless" nazi around in the general community around me.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    Love me some Orkz! But yeah, that’s the problem I ran into. I found that the boardgaming community was less reactionary so I ended up naturally moving away from 40k. It’s a shame, I liked the whole ‘paint then show off by playing’ loop.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    As fun as minis could be, if you wanted a litmus test to really find the fash without actually inquiring about the fash, wait and see how the players react to someone using proxy tokens, unpainted minis, or otherwise substitutes to play that don't involve performative spending. frothingfash

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  • [–] 4 points 3 years ago

    Ha, yeah, I love the look of a fully-painted army, but it’s absolutely not necessary to enjoy the game. It’s silly that you would need to spend a bunch of money and hours of time just to try out a new or reconfigured unit. I can understand it for tournament play, but if someone is making a deal out of it in a casual setting then you’re dealing with an asshole.

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  • [–] 25 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    The Monteverdi/Shakespeare school of Prologue writing. "We are the muses, sit down and shut up as we take 10 min to explain to you exactly what this story is about and what moral lesson you should take from it. We will be back at the end with a chorus illustrating this, There will be an exam."

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  • [–] 17 points 3 years ago

    The funniest part of Disney acquiring Star Wars has been them putting on unironic fascist parades for their space nazi IP. Like, kids in theme parks watching storm troopers demonstrate their discipline in full regalia for the people to share in their display of strength. And then they have a fascist gift shop at the end. It’s super unhinged.

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  • [–] 24 points 3 years ago

    That’s actually what the book is about, though! Heinlein was a classic example of a libertarian-turned-fascist. He wrote a book about how war is cool and the military is a necessary part of an ordered society. The book reads like satire because you would have to be a very dumb Nazi to read it and think “Of course we should be constantly at war with a faceless and dehumanized enemy, and create a society around that principle. This makes sense and is good.” but that’s literally what Heinlein was trying to say, or at least present as a possibility in the book.

    There’s some argument that he was being ironic and leaving things to be interpreted by the audience, but if you look at his work on the whole, and his political opinions, it’s clear that he’s just a bog-standard American conservative who likes war, racism, and misogyny, but doesn’t like the government or taxes.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 years ago

    The actual Robert Heinlein novel is very much about “fascism is good.” Bob Heinlein was this kind of weird mix of Ayn Rand libertarian, military-fetishist, pedophilic and incest obsessed futurist who also liked cats but not non-white people. The movie was a parody of the ideas in the novel, but Heinlein took those ideas very seriously and they cropped up time and again in his books. He embraced bisexuality while still thinking that the man-woman relationship was what nature intended. There’s a lot to not like about the guy - like fathers being seduced and bedded by their thirteen year old sexually aggressive but still meek and mild daughters, with said daughters proceeding in their quest with the active help of the mother. And so on.

    Anyway, I don’t know how many people that enjoyed the movie knew that it was not only a parody, but one that intentionally and in great detail directly mocked the book it was based on.

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