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submitted 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) by glimmer_twin@hexbear.net to c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net

Disclaimer: I don’t want this to come across as downplaying the suffering of the victims, or the horrific nature of the crimes.

That being said, I think Epstein is becoming an obsession for people that is pointless, doesn’t advance the left wing movement, and is borderline unhealthy to be honest.

People on this site and beyond are doing borderline Q-Anon level baking, using random scraps from documents and making extremely tenuous connections. This shit is unhealthy, obsessing over it and staring into the abyss of depravity is just going to cause yourself psychic damage, and for what? It’s borne out of the same thing as all conspiracism: a feeling of powerlessness, a feeling that by uncovering the mystery, doing this “investigation”, finding some hidden truth, you are doing something tangible rather than just obsessing and suffering on the internet.

This isn’t to say I don’t think all things are on the table - “he was mossad”, “this or that person was involved”, “what if he’s still alive?”. But ask yourself, what changes? What changes if any of this is true? Are any of us shocked or surprised by 99% of the names dredged up? These are all people that we already consider ontologically evil for numerous other crimes and their class position. We already know that there are 10,000 ultra powerful, ultra wealthy people who control the world, who act with impunity, who are all interconnected and who all have bourgeois class solidarity that the workers can only dream of at this stage.

And what tactical or strategic advantage is offered to working class movements we are involved in by uncovering this hidden truth? We currently have no power to punish the guilty or prevent it from happening again. Epstein himself is likely dead, most of the people mentioned are dead, or ancient and on their way out. Should we be forming pressure groups and protesting our governments to thoroughly investigate and punish the guilty? If half of what is in the files is true, our governments are riddled with people who are complicit if not actively involved.

So what is the route by which the people’s justice can be served? The same as always - the working class needs to win political power. Our time is better served thinking about how we can advance the ball on concrete issues, work with our irl organisations to build working class power. I think driving ourselves mad on the internet and expanding so much mental energy tying red string between random names and events on our mental corkboards is deleterious to this mission.

Now, I’m open to the idea that using the Epstein angle in propaganda to disillusion workers of billionaires and capitalism could be useful, but that doesn’t require more than a cursory knowledge of the situation, knowledge we’ve all had for 6 years at this point.

As marxists we shouldn’t be hyperfixating on Epstein as the keystone of everything “evil” on earth. We have a class analysis and an understanding of the system superseding the role of the individual. Things such as “epstein was working for Mossad” - ok, that may well be true, but does it change our analysis of Israel? Does it affect how we view the settler-colonial relationship? Could it possibly make them any more morally bankrupt than the genocide we’ve been watching for 2.5 years? Than a century of ethnic cleansing?

I get this feeling that doesn’t sit well with me, that this is becoming some grotesque spectacle of “true crime”, motivated by an inability to look away, by the conspiratorial powerlessness I mentioned above, and by the same instincts that make endless podcast series and TV shows about gruesome murders eternally popular. And it is taking up so much oxygen on the left - ffs, the United States is about to try and topple its second government in a month and everyone is too busy combing through the epstein files to see if the-democrat or the-republican are in there.

Tl;dr: don’t drive yourself insane trying to know the unknowable, focus on the concrete, focus on things you can change, advance the ball!

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[-] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 14 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Look, all due respect, but a couple of months ago you were trying to convince me that mamdani is the best thing to happen to the left since the invention of the colour red*, so I don’t really trust you to analyse anything tbh.

In fact, your commitment on this comes from a similar place as the desperate latching on to Mamdani. People such as yourselves who are still yet to fully renounce their liberalism want shortcuts. They aren’t prepared to do the hard yards of building class consciousness. You want an electoral saviour or a magic bullet to suddenly awaken the people.

How about millions upon millions of people radicalizing toward revolutionary sentiments

Source: trust me bro

but that large swathes of the American capitalist class are actively compromised

Congratulations, you have unlocked Russiagate: Israel Edition - yet somehow more liberal. The ruling class has a class interest in operating the way it does. The idea that some puppet master is controlling things is the most liberal take imaginable and totally anti-marxist. This theory also has a whiff of American exceptionalism (as it did when the blue maga types had their version) - “america is good, the evil things it does can be explained by foreign interference”.

*before some epic retort is constructed, this is obvious hyperbole

[-] BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net 4 points 2 days ago

I can't believe I'm doing this unironically, but your argument is mainly just an ad hominem. You're not arguing against what is being said, but who is saying it.

[-] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 8 points 2 days ago

I mean if you can't even properly identify the implications of a simple case like Epstein, then I'm not surprised you didn't understand a word I said all those months ago, which unlike the simplicity of the Epstein case, did involve some hard-boiled thinking

[-] Dessa@hexbear.net 6 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

There is a shitton of street organizing going on rn like I've never seen. Nobody is talking about Epstein. Epstein is not making liberals reconsider guns and band with neighbors to jam federal agents. Epstein did not make a general strike happen with 2 weeks planning or put 100k on the streets of Minneapolis.

[-] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 2 points 2 days ago

You understand things can compound, it's not one or the other, I never claimed 100k went on the streets of Minneapolis because of Epstein, but it's ridiculous to assert the average American isn't paying attention to the Epstein leaks or that they don't care about it, polls show the opposite, discourse all over social media shows the opposite

The average American viewing the ruling class as pedophiles is a boon to organizing and the socialist movement in general, even while some are organizing directly against the fascism that is gunning people down in the streets

The indirect influences of radicalization isn't something to just be dismissed out of hand

[-] Dessa@hexbear.net 4 points 2 days ago

This degree of noise around Epstein is not helpful. There are a million bits of info easily forgotten in the flood of a million more, and all of it is way too easily individualized.

[-] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

lenin-dont-laugh

How’s mamdani doing bud? Everything you dreamed of?

[-] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 10 points 2 days ago

Nice dodge, let's get back to you not understanding basic theory

Congratulations, you have unlocked Russiagate: Israel Edition - yet somehow more liberal. The ruling class has a class interest in operating the way it does. The idea that some puppet master is controlling things is the most liberal take imaginable and totally anti-marxist.

I never claimed Israel is the all powerful puppet master, I said they've actively compromised a large swathe of the US capitalist class, which partially explains why the US state takes a maximalist position toward the puppet state that is Israel

The puppet can have agency and class interests of its own that lead it to undermine the puppet master in certain arenas, even tho the US maintains ultimate control in the end by weight of its infinitely larger control and access over the global capitalist system

Your narrow mechanistic interpretation of class just led you to overlook one the most crucial aspects of class; which is how it socially manifests and how that manifestation impacts the allocation of capital beyond the textbook imperatives of the circuit

The manifestation is this case being capitalists utilizing pedophiles for blackmail and acquisition of leverge

Real basic shit

[-] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

let's get back to you not understanding basic theory

projection

You are one of the best examples of dunning-kruger I’ve seen on this site, and there have been plenty to choose from over the years. Arguing with you is pointless because you have no humility or ability to consider your position might be wrong. Positions which coincidentally always seem to overlap with whatever is popular with radlibs at any given moment. You might want to think on why that might be.

This post was simply presenting an argument that maybe (just maybe), as the US government executes people in the street, as they prepare regime change in iran, as living conditions for workers around the world collapse, there are better things communists could be doing with their time than obsessing over Epstein on the internet - and you are so incapable of being receptive to even light critique of your positions that rather than sit and consider such a thing, you find the need to jump in and defend the revolutionary strategy of epstein baking with all your heart, as in our prior interactions over Mamdani.

I look forward to hearing your reports of the dozens of people you have radicalised into communism using this epstein/mamdani strategy out in the real world - surely an inevitability given your invincible grasp on historical materialism.

[-] umbrella@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

don't want to stir stuff up, just want to mention that i have made a big dent on people's belief in the liberal order by doing nothing but factually showing them bits of the depraved shit our lords are up to.

for reference, the fascist pundits over here briefly shit on chomsky then SHUT UP about it.

[-] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 4 points 2 days ago

Yeh fair, and I think like I said in the OP, depending on who you’re talking to, the epstein angle could be a good avenue to attack with. I just think we should be cautious with the sort of QAnon style investigations going on. It’s gonna be enough for most people for us to just say “and look at that epstein shit! These billionaires don’t deserve their power”

[-] CommunistCuddlefish@hexbear.net 3 points 2 days ago

Just want to pop in and say I think your comments and analysis here is correct

[-] OrionsMask@hexbear.net 4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

You being needlessly hostile and trying to browbeat people into agreeing with you is making me not want to listen to you, just FYI

[-] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 2 points 1 day ago

I’ll do my best to carry on with the burden of this knowledge weighing upon me

[-] juniper@hexbear.net 21 points 2 days ago

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder and didn't really address the parent commenter's points.

Knowledge that AmeriKKKa is in no small part run but a cabal of billionaire pedophiles, many of whom engage in not just sexual violence but outright torture, is absolutely radicalizing. It is our "job" to turn that disgust and revulsion into class consciousness, because otherwise such radicalization can be subsumed by the larger superstructure. I agree that fixating on it is counterproductive in the same vein as fixating on who really killed JFK, but it is easy rhetorical fuel and to dismiss it like you do is reflexive contrarianism imo.

[-] quarrk@hexbear.net 4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Pasting this Marx quote again (my bold added), basically him saying the same as you:

War on the German state of affairs! By all means! They are below the level of history, they are beneath any criticism, but they are still an object of criticism like the criminal who is below the level of humanity but still an object for the executioner. In the struggle against that state of affairs, criticism is no passion of the head, it is the head of passion. It is not a lancet, it is a weapon. Its object is its enemy, which it wants not to refute but to exterminate. For the spirit of that state of affairs is refuted. In itself, it is no object worthy of thought, it is an existence which is as despicable as it is despised. Criticism does not need to make things clear to itself as regards this object, for it has already settled accounts with it. It no longer assumes the quality of an end-in-itself, but only of a means. Its essential pathos is indignation, its essential work is denunciation.

this post was submitted on 02 Feb 2026
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