Hey all. I'd like to open an official discussion regarding the upturning of the prior Hexbear party line on an :israel-cool: emote proper with the unambiguous Zionist flag.
I want to preface this by saying this is not in a 'ceding the issue' way. Over the past year I've been trying to engage in self-crit w/rt the chauvinism I've internalized growing up in a Liberal Zionist household, and my personal viewpoint on it did a 180 some months back, so I want to reopen this discussion proper in my personal capacities as Self-Appointed Emote Czar.
The reason it's taken long enough beyond that is prior to July, I was essentially half-engaged with the site in order to finish out my degree. After that, it’s been mostly inertia of confirming with the admins and other /c/Judaism mods, as well as having to be rigorous about my job search personally giving me little free time to coordinate this.
I do not want to center myself in this conversation more than I inadvertently already have, so I will leave my own opinion on the issue as a comment rather than explaining further here.
The consensus we've roughly come to is to open up the discussion in an official manner for a day or so. After that, I'll weigh the discussion in an entirely vibes-based manner (sorry Dean Norris enjoyers) and we'll alter Hexbear party line on it accordingly.
I find your very obvious misrepresenting of what I have said equally disgusting. At no point have I voiced any support for Zionism and you fucking know that.
There are posts above where you tacitly support the Zionist position in relation to the Star of David and its relation to the flag. That's not material support of Zionism, but it's tacit support of its ideological standpoints. I agree that it's roundabout to say you "support Zionism", but you defended its ideological grounding for no good reason. So whatever we call that, you need to confront that
I literally only echoed the arguments of other posters here prior and just yesterday we had someone begging for the burning israeli flag that was literally posting anti-semitic shit in the same post.
I am not making assertions of my own I am solely recounting events surrounding this and why it has been a point of contention and you all are trying to paint me as some sort of bigot. I am not responding to anymore of these baseless accusations from people clearly not in the loop about the shit we have had to put up with regarding this issue as mods.
You are oversimplifying this and taking the side a toxic shithead that has had a personal grudge against me for years prior to anything that has been posted in this thread. I am done here.
They are terrible arguments that you needn't have echoed. You echoed those arguments in order to shut down the conversation and you implied or outright accused other comrades of being antisemitic. And people rightfully attacked those arguments and your behavior, and you responded in kind.
No I literally posted an example of an actual anti-semite begging for the emoji. Quit fucking misrepresenting me. How the fuck are you saying this while ignoring the example I gave was some Nazi fuck saying "most jews are genocidal" and no it was not z_poster (I hope) but someone making all the same arguments with that obviously Nazi addition.
Seems like an attempt to shut down the conversation to me.
Looks like an accusation of antisemtism against a comrade.
Enlighten us about the shit you've had to put up with. Don't keep us in the dark then! I'm going off of what I've experienced in the past 3,5 years or so lurking and commenting on and off. But be specific and explicit about it so we can understand. You'll find I'm very flexible in understanding when there's any reason to. Though any evidence will still be only relevant insofar as it excuses your behavior and gives context to the comments, not your standpoints regarding specific ideological claims
When you are telling someone who calls out the bullshit arguments that are used to not add the burning zionist flag that they really actually want to see the star of david burn, implying that their motivations are antisemitic instead of hatred of the zionist entity, then you’re doing exactly the same as zionists who deliberately blurry the lines between antizionism and antisemitism to defend their genocide. Being so careless about the talking points you use is gross, even more if you seemingly don’t care about the topic.
Ugh, just shut up. Accusing Nakoichi of being a Zionist is bad faith and the worst they are guilty of is getting a little heated at times.
While I do think that the emoji should be updated, it is a weird fucking hill to die on, and misrepresenting the material conditions for not having the Star of David on the flag is gross. I believe that the decision was made before October 7th, and it was a lose/lose situation where if you have the Star of David on the flag, people will smear you as an anti-Semite who hates Jewish people, because you want to throw Jews in the oven or something. And now people like you are arguing “you’re conflating Jewish people with Israel which is anti-Semitic” while ignoring the context behind the original decision to exclude it.
And we can continue to argue this bullshit all night, I could make the argument that removing the Star of David from the flag of Israel is wise, because it separates the Jewish identity from Israel and removes the association of Jewish people and zionists, helping Jewish folk reclaim their symbol from the Zionist entity.
But why the fuck should any of us waste time bickering about this subject further? Maybe we should put our energy into better shit then semantic arguments?
They're doing it again too, I specifically said I don't care one way or another whether we have the emoji or not just that I have seen at least one actual anti-semite beg for it to be included. So much bad faith and disingenuous shit leveled at me over this just because I am sick of Z_poster being an asshole.
You are deliberately misinterpret any criticism that comes your way. I never called you a Zionist, I said your talking points are Zionist, and they are regardless of the context you think I’m missing. There are many non antisemitic reasons for why someone could think that the replacement idf flag is not sufficient. For 1, the violence and crimes of the zionist state are not just committed by it’s terrorist army, they are imbedded in the states very constitution. For 2, the initial reasonings that were given to not include the real zionist cool flag were bad even if there was a consensus at the time. The zionist state has always been extremely violent and completely illegitimate and it has always used the star of david prominently in all of it’s terrorist acts. Affirming the religious value of its terrorist flag is an insult to anyone who has suffered from the crimes that were committed under it.
Those points are a topics of discussion and there might be users with disagreements on it. Discarding Z_poster’s additions to this discussion by implying they’re antisemitic is a just cheap way to not actually engage with it. Worse than cheap, it legitimises zionist attempts to discard any criticism on the zionist project as antisemitic. That last part is what I take issue with. Especially 2 years in the violent escalation of the genocide. If you have such a big issue with that user you can refer to those issues directly. But just attacking them with zionist talking points is, as I said earlier, gross.
We literally had a burning zionist flag representation already just without the star of david. So yes it seemed like they are really hung up on the burning star of david part, also as I have shown in this very thread the exact same talking point was used by an actual anti-semite just yesterday. Again this comes from Z_poster repeatedly deliberately misrepresenting the arguments of others, not just me, to make accusations. This has been going on with this individual for YEARS. You are doing the same thing by refusing to acknowledge their history of this behavior. This is not about this current struggle session it is about this specific user repeatedly doing the shit you are accusing me of and I am fucking tired of it. They should have just fucked off years ago when they first got banned yet their contributions to the news mega have afforded them the same special treatment I am now being accused of receiving. I am done here. Go ahead and have your last word I honestly don't give a fuck.
Also you really wanna frame it as "wanting to add the star of David", rather than just wanting the actual fucking flag but okay.
We had an imaginary flag of an organization that hasn't existed for 80 years.
I asked this elsewhere, but enlighten us on this. I've seen lots of talking past one another with ZPoster, for sure. But the accusations that this defense of the flag is the same as any Zionist defense of it was just correct and was constantly avoided with discussion shut downs, vague accusations of racism and anti-Semitism, and the like. ZPoster we should deal with for the other stuff in a different thread. And if you want to claim that your actions are entirely because of that, not because of any ideological failures, then handle that there. I'd encourage you to start that thread and I'll deal with it fairly in that context, where I think you likely have a point about ZPosters behavior (though I've still seen pretty limited evidence to now).
But blaming that for your treatment of this topic is incorrect and you should reflect on that. We are all coming to the conclusion that ZPoster was correct on this topic and so your blanket treatment was still wrong and either came out of overreach and defensiveness, or from you being ideologically supportive of the Zionist position regarding the flag.
I've said it many times, the emoji isn't of near the importance that this ideological battle is. And I've only seen you digress (give into the new position) and not acknowledge that you contributed and argued for the wrong position in a derisive way