1708
Still Don't Sleep Though (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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[–] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

concentration camps and millions being stripped of health insurance and food assistance

So like Gaza?

Because I'm pretty sure this was the logic for people who refused to vote that this very community spent an entire year assuring me was a bunch of tankie bots from ml.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    The majority of people who didn't vote for Harris don't care about Gaza. They're just larping on the internet.

    She wasn't a zionist and wanted to end the war. It was a clear cut decision, but it was a brown and black sacrifice people were willing to make for their moral purity.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I was ready to demand my Lefty comrades go vote for Kamala: after all, one Genocide is better than two genocides.

    But then she came out "tough on the border" and took that from me. She promised to be every bit as hard as Trump.

    https://theweek.com/politics/kamala-harris-immigration-policy-mexico-border

    But she worked HARD to alienate the Left. She took every piece of rhetoric I had and shat on it.

    So we have Kamala caving on Gaza with rhetoric (and walking it back)

    https://forward.com/fast-forward/666427/kamala-harris-does-not-agree-with-protester-who-shouted-genocide-her-campaign-says/

    But flatly refusing to do anything:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/crocodile-tears-and-genocide-how-the-gaza-war-is-threatening-kamala-harris-s-white-house-chances/ar-AA1tnGVg

    Just like the Liberal Party. Promise almost nothing, make a symbolic gesture, do actually nothing.

    https://www.commondreams.org/news/harris-gaza

    So when she gets no support, why are Clinton Neoliberal, Reaganomics-poisoned-but-polite Liberals surprised? This is the Country they designed, on purpose.

    She wasn't a zionist and wanted to end the war

    Citation? Because any time I saw anything indicating that, she IMMEDIATELY walked it back. And I've cited (shitty) sources.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It is possible for her to be a bad candidate who made consistently bad decisions, and for it still to be a bad choice for an individual to not vote for her.

    source: *gestures in all directions *

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    100% I have voted in every primary until this one bc it was canceled. I still voted for her even though I hated it bc the reality is/was that, of the two choices, she was not the worst.

    The time for moral grandstanding is always long past when it’s Election Day.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    The time for moral grandstanding is always long past when it’s Election Day.

    Good line. And good reasoning before that!

    I have voted third party in the distant past. It’s not some awful taboo to not play along with the two party system. And given my extended family, the further back I look in the past the more that right wing stuff just seemed normal, so I may not make the same choice now.

    But the time to abstain or go third party is when the price of expressing my more ideal choice is worth not voting against the worse of the 2-party candidates.

    I guess the logical exception to that is if you’re an accelerationist and you think we are SO far beyond being able to course correct that it is literally a more moral and humane outcome to turn the nu-neo-nazis loose on just about every vulnerable demographic that exists. Then you get to the rebuild phase faster and there’s less time for the government to kill & ruin people. But you never know if your plan is going to hit a little roadblock called nuclear armageddon.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I dug through my comment history to find this. It has plenty of links.

    I read it. Democrats will keep playing the left for fools and moving to the right, no matter what happens.

    No Bernie's campaign and Warren's campaign drove Biden to the left on a whole host of issues, including labor unions.

    There was no daylight between her and Biden on Netanyahu’s genocide.

    Don't lie.

    This comment said it best and lists calls for a ceasefire from Harris.

    https://lemmy.world/comment/13069715

    She’s taken a stance, multiple times. The left doesn’t want to hear it.

    March - https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas

    July - https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315

    September - https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/harris-trump-presidential-debate-election-2024/card/harris-calls-for-ceasefire-in-gaza-while-trump-claims-she-hates-israel--isokhfqmy6EgRGrUOSuK

    Harris promised to do everything in her power to end the war in Gaza.

    “This year has been difficult, given the scale of death and destruction in Gaza and given the civilian casualties and displacement in Lebanon, it is devastating. And as president, I will do everything in my power to end the war in Gaza, to bring home the hostages, end the suffering in Gaza, ensure Israel is secure, and ensure the Palestinian people can realise their right to dignity, freedom, security and self-determination,” Harris said to applause during a rally in East Lansing city of Michigan, home to 200,000 Arab Americans.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/4/harris-says-will-end-gaza-war-in-final-election-appeal-to-arab-americans

    Unlike Biden, Harris was not a life long Zionist.

    When Joe Biden met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his war cabinet during his visit to Israel, the U.S. president assured them: “I don’t believe you have to be a Jew to be a Zionist, and I am a Zionist.”

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/

    Harris wasn't perfect. And that was simply not good enough for some people who didn't want to risk their hands getting dirty. Even if it meant the Palestinians becoming the cost of doing business.

    I voted for Harris and the election is over. That doesn’t mean I’m going to pretend that she wasn’t as committed to Netanyahu’s genocide as Biden was.

    Good for you. I appreciate it. No need to spread propaganda though.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Saying that Israel has a right to exist is Zionist.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    The context matters. That doesn't mean it has the right to exist as an apartheid state. She wants a two state solution. Which should be the goal.

    No amount of misquoting is getting anyone out of the fact she was the correct choice in 2024.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Why should that be the goal? Why does stolen land get to remain stolen just because a couple of generations have passed?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    There was no daylight between her and Biden on Netanyahu’s genocide.

    Don't lie.

    You may have missed the "No daylight, kid." thing it seems.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    What does that have to with anything? Harris was never under any obligation to follow that instruction once she became president.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Which would mean accepting a lie, thereby completely undermining calls for context or saying statements are being misquoted.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    They are being misquoted. That was a Biden quote used to say that Harris had the same position Biden. Which is a lie.

    Harris had distinct positions on Israel. Biden telling her to have the same positions doesn't mean she had the same positions.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Sure. Though we can't quite know if even that's true as she did not become president.

    Not a thing comes to mind.

    Was still pretty much the biggest self-sabotaging way of communicating that sentiment in the campaign.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Sure. Though we can’t quite know if even that’s true as she did not become president.

    I'm not sure what you're referring to. We cannot look into an alternate timeline.

    Former presidents do not have power over current presidents.

    We can look at her public statements. And those compared to this make it clear Biden was definitely worse

    https://jewishcurrents.org/joe-bidens-alarming-record-on-israel

    At this crucial juncture, Biden undercut Obama again. After Clinton’s ultimatum, the vice president—who was still traveling in the Middle East—contacted Netanyahu himself. In their book Our Separate Ways: The Struggle for the Future of the U.S.-Israel Alliance, Dana Allin and Steve Simon describe Biden’s discussion with the Israeli prime minister as “a conciliatory call” that had the effect of “undercutting Clinton and reinforcing Israel’s generally dismissive approach to the administration’s periodically tough messaging.” An administration official remembers being “astonished” upon seeing the transcript of the conversation: “Biden completely undercut the secretary of state and gave Bibi a strong indication that whatever was being planned in Washington was hotheadedness and he could defuse it when he got back.” When Clinton saw the transcript, the official recalls, she “realized she’d been thrown under the bus.”

    Biden's been derailing US foreign policy on the Israel since he was vp.

    Was still pretty much the biggest self-sabotaging way of communicating that sentiment in the campaign.

    Yes.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Thank you for the well reasoned response.

    Here is my Issue:

    When the Harris campaign did nothing to add teeth to the promise of a ceasefire (such as cutting off the weapons for the genocide would have done)? It comes off as just another empty gesture.

    "Ben, stop the fighting! I mean it! we really need this to stop! I mean it!"

    Only in the final final week before the election did I find any hope of cutting off weapons shipments. I had to dig, I had to scrounge, I had to be plugged in all day, every day, and trust political tabloids to maybe have it right this time, even as they referenced hints and leaked memos that the reader just had to trust existed.

    Evidence was sparse, hard to find, and hard to trust.

    Meanwhile, the sale of Palestinian Land https://wagingnonviolence.org/2025/01/activists-infiltrate-israeli-events-selling-palestinian-land-in-us/ Continues unabated. We see the incentive even beyond the "manifest destiny" style ideology, we see material gain for Israel to continue as long as ammo will last.

    And rather than break from Joe, she wanted to be seen as AIPAC as honoring his commitments. She had a long history of supporting Israel. Publicly. Loudly. Even as that foreign-state's lobby backed people far to her right in both parties. https://theintercept.com/2024/10/24/aipac-spending-congress-elections-israel/

    This information was widely available. Easily accessible. Why would I trust someone who wants AIPAC campaign money to share my values when I don't even see her articulating them in any meaningful way?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Harris' refusal to break from Biden on the campaign trail and the DNC consultants sunk her campaign into the ground.

    Harris would have plenty of room to break from Biden once he was out of the White House.

    This is what I mean when I say Biden was a life long Zionist. He was actively sabotaging US foreign policy since he was VP.

    https://jewishcurrents.org/joe-bidens-alarming-record-on-israel

    At this crucial juncture, Biden undercut Obama again. After Clinton’s ultimatum, the vice president—who was still traveling in the Middle East—contacted Netanyahu himself. In their book Our Separate Ways: The Struggle for the Future of the U.S.-Israel Alliance, Dana Allin and Steve Simon describe Biden’s discussion with the Israeli prime minister as “a conciliatory call” that had the effect of “undercutting Clinton and reinforcing Israel’s generally dismissive approach to the administration’s periodically tough messaging.” An administration official remembers being “astonished” upon seeing the transcript of the conversation: “Biden completely undercut the secretary of state and gave Bibi a strong indication that whatever was being planned in Washington was hotheadedness and he could defuse it when he got back.” When Clinton saw the transcript, the official recalls, she “realized she’d been thrown under the bus.”

    This is not the same as supporting a two-state solution.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Harris' refusal to break from Biden on the campaign trail and the DNC consultants sunk her campaign into the ground.

    Yep. I don't understand this fetish for decorum. People are hurting, and all your entire party could do was consider the feelings of a dementia-riddled genocide supporter.

    Quit running defense for a Party that was already staging Genocide before Joe was in charge:

    https://www.voicesheardfoundation.org/post/deportations-and-due-process-comparing-obama-and-trump-policies

    They're just more polite, so they let you go back to brunch while the Genocide continues within our own border.

    Fuck you and everything you stand for, Diet-Fascist.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago*

    Yep. I don’t understand this fetish for decorum.

    With Obama I posit he had to overcome racism and Bill Clinton cheating on Hillary Clinton.

    Quit running defense for a Party that was already staging Genocide before Joe was in charge:

    I'm arguing for the most useful strategy during elections. Which you did by voting for Harris. Other people on here are still arguing against this.

    No one has to like the Democrats. They're our most useful tool until some socialist or progressive co-opts the Democratic party. edit: typo

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    She promised to be every bit as hard as Trump.

    Bullshit. Biden deported more than Trump. But it wasn't news because he did it legally. Everyone got due process. There were no foreign prisons for the mass deportations. The problem with Trump isn't the deportation but his illegal methods.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Its all just more authoritarian propaganda man. They're either mentally deficient or brainwashed at this point.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    So if you voted for Trump for his economic polices or yada yada you didn't also vote for the camps? Harris was a continuation of Biden, lip serivice to peace and unprecidented support to the genocide. Any vote on the ballot was a vote for genocide, if you voted, you voted for it.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    The people who fed these talking points to Americans were Russian bot farms. Harris is not a life long Zionist. Biden is.

    Biden had single-handedly been undermining US foreign policy since he was vice president. He undercut the US position in a private call with Benjamin Netanyahu when the US was trying to leverage Israel into behaving. edit: typo

    https://jewishcurrents.org/joe-bidens-alarming-record-on-israel

    At this crucial juncture, Biden undercut Obama again. After Clinton’s ultimatum, the vice president—who was still traveling in the Middle East—contacted Netanyahu himself. In their book Our Separate Ways: The Struggle for the Future of the U.S.-Israel Alliance, Dana Allin and Steve Simon describe Biden’s discussion with the Israeli prime minister as “a conciliatory call” that had the effect of “undercutting Clinton and reinforcing Israel’s generally dismissive approach to the administration’s periodically tough messaging.” An administration official remembers being “astonished” upon seeing the transcript of the conversation: “Biden completely undercut the secretary of state and gave Bibi a strong indication that whatever was being planned in Washington was hotheadedness and he could defuse it when he got back.” When Clinton saw the transcript, the official recalls, she “realized she’d been thrown under the bus.”

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    The people who fed these talking points to Americans were Russian bot farms.

    Russian Bot Farms like... The Times of Israel?

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/harris-is-a-strong-ally-for-israel-and-american-jews/

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    A neoliberal Israeli online newspaper is of course going to spin the neoliberal Democrat in a positive light. So what?

    It doesn't change the fact that Kamala Harris was the right choice in 2024. Or that your argument is based on talking points from a Russian bot farm.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    What's passed? Is in the past. I voted for Kamala.

    Going forward? We're in the time to actually put pressure on the Democrats NOW for a platform worth voting for.

    Now. Can we get some support for Zohran Mamdani, America's Next Mayor, and harbinger of a New Democratic Party? Or are you too busy arguing with brick walls that they "shoulda, coulda, woulda" ?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'm going to keep arguing against accelerationism.

    This idea that we should only support democratic socialists like Mamdani and Bernie is ridiculous and is definitively accelerationist.

    Accelerationist ideas need to be challenged and refuted wherever they show up.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child)

    This idea that we should only support democratic socialists like Mamdani and Bernie is ridiculous and is definitively accelerationist.

    Are you familiar with the concept of "kayfabe" from American pro-wrestling? I need the Corporate Democrats to fear ALL of us walking away so they don't do... Exactly what they're doing to Mamdani anyway. 😓 that didn't work.

    But when it comes down to it? After the primaries, we still need to hold our nose and think of the Climate and all people first, for any even-marginal slowdown. Results matter.

    With that out of the way? The Democrats have a chance to actually be a part of real change, real success, and to build a real future for the party and country. But they're refusing. It is maddening.

    Did you see the way Walz alienated the indigenous voters? I'm deeply curious about what response you get from Palestinian-Americans grieving their families. To absolve Democrats of their inability to message coherently when we need it most? Is simply unacceptable.

    Some part of me wishes for a Local that could run as a Republican as a DSA member, and get entrenched that way. I would knock on so many doors for that person. The Parties have switched before.

    But this is the time to pressure the Democrats for a platform worth voting for in 2026 and 2028 - what are you doing? This isn't maximizing their success.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I'm arguing that accelerationism is a self-destructive ideology. Democrats are going to keep chasing the neocon conservatives who vote over the leftists who don't vote. The way we win is getting more candidates like Mamdani in positions of power, including the presidency. But we're still going to need to neoliberal candidates in order to have majorities in Congress and state legislatures. There aren't going to be enough socialist candidates in the short term. Hopefully there will be quite a few progressives though.

    Did you see the way Walz alienated the indigenous voters? I’m deeply curious about what response you get from Palestinian-Americans grieving their families. To absolve Democrats of their inability to message coherently when we need it most? Is simply unacceptable.

    Also, I'm not Tim Walz. But he was liked by indigenous voters.

    https://azmirror.com/2024/10/10/we-cant-go-back-tribal-leaders-welcome-vice-presidential-candidate-tim-walz-to-arizona/

    Walz also had better takes on Gaza than Biden.

    https://apnews.com/article/walz-israel-hamas-gaza-harris-election-emhoff-biden-netanyahu-hersh-muslim-fd797e42ad3c919026c5341ae4297500

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    There were a million reasons that people didn't show for Harris. Why do you scold only the people who were outspoken against genocide? Can you point to any evidence that this issue swung the election?

    Biden put Harris in a terrible position by holding out as long as he did. Then Harris ran a horrendous campaign. That is why she lost.

    People who care about Gaza are people who are politically engaged. That not who stayed home. Politically engaged people vote third party when they want to protest, and third party votes did not sway this election. Not even close.

    People who stay home are normies who have given up. A lot of people need inspiration to show up, and centrist Democrats just aren't inspiring.

    I can only suppose that your fixation on the genocide issue is because you like the genocide and were pissed off that people objected to it. That's the only reason to bring this trash up in every damn conversation about the Trump administration.

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