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One party deserves criticism for being insufficient. One party deserves nothing but scorn and opposition. (lemmy.world)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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[+] [S] -6 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

Its not “a classic” when I literally tagged it with /s mate.

I literally outlined the whole thing, which included the /s. The sarcasm is key to understanding the response. Your subsequent denial of the position clearly outlined by that sarcasm is the classic denial by claiming "it's just a joke".

You are trying to force me into a position I don’t hold. I am in no way in favor of Russia invading Ukraine.

No, you 'just' think that genocide isn't important if it's between two 'oligarch run' states, and that the position of an organization on genocide is unimportant when deciding whether or not to join it to oppose fascism.

I'm sure you have the same opinion about Palestinian genocide. /s

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Do you see how you just keep accusing me of positions I don't hold? Thats not how conversations work mate. You don't misunderstand what someone said, hear their position clarified, and then keep pretending your misunderstanding is "the truth".

    Like where do you hope this conversation goes? In your mind you're going to convince me that I support Russia when I don't?

    You seem to have already concluded what I believe for me. You could have learned was my actual position was on the matter with more detail. But you've proven you're completely incapable of having that conversation in good faith.

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  • [–] [S] -5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Do you see how you just keep accusing me of positions I don’t hold?

    You pretty openly characterized the Russo-Ukranian war as a conflict between 'oligarch-run' countries that shouldn't be regarded as morally important, don't really know why you're trying so hard to deny it.

    You don’t misunderstand what someone said, hear their position clarified, and then keep pretending your misunderstanding is “the truth”.

    Okay. Feel free to clarify how your quote means something other than what I've asserted. All you've done is say 'nuh-uh' to the obvious and apparent reading of the quote.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Giving this one last shot. Hope you read it in good faith.

    I think you're taking my criticism of conflicts between oligarchs and coming to some conclusion not based in class conflict but in nation state conflict. You're trying to attribute it in a conflict between nations and no leftist will ever see wars outside of class dynamics. It's useless for us. This is not a win loss conflict. It is a loss loss conflict for the working class of each nation. But especially Ukraine.

    I think it's why you likely confuse criticism of NATO with being a support of Russia. Something this entire conversation started with. Which is likely why you think PSL supports Russia. We don't.

    I correctly see this conflict as two nation states using their working class to accomplish the goals of capital. One that is supported by the worlds largest military but struggling to keep it's support. And another that found aggressive action to be the best for its capitalist interests.

    We acknowledge the aggressive party in this conflict is Russia. And condemn them in that aspect. But also understand the the material conditions that lead to this conflict and criticize NATO and America for their policy of "fighting until the last Ukrainian".

    We want an end to the conflict. Not a war for wars sake. We acknowledge that the only benefit to more Ukraine's dying is to capitalist interest. To the war machine of the US.

    There is no winning in a conflict between oligarchs. Only the working class of Ukraine suffer here.

    All wars end in a treaty of some sort. And it should be up to the people of Ukreaine to decide that end. Something that the US has actively prevented. Encouraging Ukraine fight on with their milk toast support. So now it is being decided by a western war machine that is enjoying using them for a proxy war and abandoning them when it no longer serves their interest.

    Support of Ukrain is not dependent on agreeing with the oligarchs of America. It is, quite frankly, contradictory to it.

    No one with "power" in this conflict has the Ukraine people's interest at heart. It is why I called it a "conflict between oligarchs". And it's why I gave you a sarcastic reply to you're very ignorant comment.

    I want an end to the war. An end to dying young men. And to do that you must be critical of both Oligarchs that continue this conflict for their own selfish interests. And of course, as someone that lives in the US and sees my leaders milk this conflict for their own self interest, of course I'm going to be critical to the country I live in.

    My criticisms of Russia mean nothing. I have no say or influence in them. My activism is directed at the oligarchs and ruling class of my own nation. As I hope is being done by the leftist in Ukraine and Russia as well.

    This is not support of Russia. This is solidarity between class. I will fight against the the oligarchs and their interest in my state and criticize their selfish profit driven incentives. As I know class conscious people are doing in Ukraine and Russia alike.

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  • [+] [S] -7 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    I didn't accuse you of 'support of Russia'. I accused you of apologia for genocide in Ukraine - and considering that your entire screed here is about how 'which side' in the conflict doesn't matter and 'no war but class war' (seemingly applicable when Ukrainians are being genocided, but not when Palestinians are being genocided), it would seem that, despite all of your bitching and bellyaching, I was absolutely correct in my reading. I guess you just don't like it concisely stated?

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