TL;DR: We tried to move the community because of moderatorial concerns, but fumbled how we went about doing so.
First and Foremost:
We'd like to formally apologize for springing this on you all out of nowhere, and for taking so long to respond to the backlash. With retrospect, we understand that we should have notified you all beforehand to create an opportunity to give us feedback. We understand that a lot of respect and trust was lost, and we expect it'll take a lot of work and a lot of time before we can earn it back, but we would be grateful if y’all gave us that chance.
What happened, and why?
The primary issue that incited this was because we don't fully agree with the admin's moderation policies. By and large they do a great job and align with us on mod actions, but there have been several cases where we strongly disagreed, and our choices were overruled.
For example, 2 months ago, Kolanaki reached out to us via email and said they were banned from 196 for “playing the victim” and asked us why we banned him, but we didn’t. Moss talked to them and realized that the ban was unjust after reviewing the comment he was banned for. If he had never contacted us, we wouldn't have known about the ban, and they would have still thought we banned them.
There were a few similar events in a short time frame, leading to a few posts/comments in the community about the heavier modding policies. It's possible some posts/comments were misunderstood by Ada, or she interpreted things differently than we would have, but it led to some bans that we felt were indeed heavy-handed, and would not violate our rules in even the most uncharitable of interpretations. We have found that this is an ongoing trend when it comes to moderation of our community from the Admins. We oppose this because it leads to many users who otherwise mean well ending up alienated and removed for reasons that are frankly completely unfair. This is, in our opinion, counter to what we set out to build in our community.
It was made clear to us that it was their instance, and that we didn’t have a say in who would be banned and what would be removed. This is, of course, perfectly valid. It’s their instance, therefore it's up to them to decide what goes, but we no longer wanted to be the ones seen as accountable for moderation actions we have no control over. For this reason, we wanted to transfer out of lemmy.blahaj.zone. As much as we wanted to stay in the LGBTQ instance, we couldn't come to an agreement with Ada, so we talked to her about transferring out and got her blessing.
How we messed up
The most major failing on our part is, of course, that we didn’t announce the migration beforehand. Besides that, we also didn’t explain why we made the choices we made and only gave very vague answers. We avoided sharing the justification for our actions because we didn’t want to cause drama and/or exacerbate the situation, but this lack of substantiating our actions only caused the situation to worsen.
Going forward (if we may), we won't make the same mistakes again. From now on, we will attempt to be as transparent as possible.
FAQ
Why we chose lemmy.world
Many people have been asking about why we moved to lemmy.world. It already hosts the majority of large communities and besides this uncomfortable level of centralization, it has also been somewhat controversial as of late. Despite that, we still chose lemmy.world due to the following reasons:
- Moss's communication with the admins, and their agreement to let us moderate the community as we see fit. Ruud, after looking over our rules, agreed to abstain from taking admin action to curate or otherwise moderate our community, unless absolutely necessary.
- The instance is large enough to support traffic without performance issues (other instances like lemm.ee, sh.itjust.works, and lemmy.dbzer0.com would have been fine too), and the instance has a certain degree of guaranteed longevity.
- Moss was given a list that was kindly made by the lemmy.world people as a part of our transfer detailing those who are banned on Blahaj.zone, but not on Lemmy.world, making moderation discrepancies much easier to clean up post-transfer.
- Our agreement with Ruud predated the now-rescinded policy changes
- It was, to the best of our knowledge, the most federated-with instance. We have come to understand that this is not necessarily the case.
Why not have another team take over the original 196?
This is a similar situation with what happened over on Reddit. 196 mods didn't agree with admins and were eventually replaced (difference here is that we were not forced out, but chose to leave). As Lemmy was a large gathering spot for people fleeing Reddit, we felt it was better to try to keep the community together and move together. Having another team take over splits the community. The more fragmentation there is, the less longevity and volume of community each skew will have.
What about the possibility of more trolls, neoliberals, bad actors, sealions, and transphobes on Lemmy.world?
Another huge issue was that the mods and the community were not on the same page regarding lemmy.world, their admins, and their policies. We understand the concern about trolls/bad-actors/transphobes, but we feel well-equipped to handle these issues. In addition, we've been in contact with the lemmy.world admins for a while now, and they've assured us that they'd allow us to moderate our community however we saw fit. All this being said, we still failed to communicate that to the community before taking action, which has undermined any assurances that we have given after the fact. We cannot apologize enough for that.
What about the people who are using instances that are defederated from lemmy.world (e.g. Beehaw)
This is an unfortunate issue that we were not aware of at the time of transfer. We're not sure what the solution is, but want to make our community as accessible as possible. Community solutions are welcome.
Did you migrate because of X? (addressing speculation)
- We didn’t migrate due to anything related to neopronouns
- We didn’t migrate due to us supposedly not wanting to use blahaj.zone lemmy accounts
- We didn’t migrate due to us having friends who were banned from lemmy.blahaj.zone
- We didn’t migrate due to us wanting to make the space less queer/leftist/etc
- We didn’t migrate due to us getting secretly ousted by the Blahaj admin team
What now?
Well, we're not sure. We could go back on our decision and stay on blahaj.zone, continue on lemmy.world, do both, or try something else. Truth be told, we don't know what to do. For now, we will leave the comments open to civil community discourse, and choose our course of action from there.
Sincerely, Qaz, Rmbp, Greembow, A_Very_big_Fan, Peachy, and Moss.
Was the whole mod team involved in these discussions? Was everyone aware of this desire to move? That Lemmy.world was the selected option?
Edit: As a reminder, "the whole mod team is on board" was one of the original notes on the move.
The whole mod team said it sounded like a good idea months ago. What we didn't approve of was the sudden decision to move at the drop of a hat with no warning.
I'm on record saying I'm in favor of a vote and making it known we were moving way before we were this close to it happening. But I had to take it down because Ada was getting upset over it, and as the newest mod I didn't want to be the one to be responsible for any ill will.
You didn't have to take it down. What I got "upset" at isn't that you told people you were planning on moving. It's that you told the community you were "working with me" on your planned move. I had a single conversation with moss, in which I told her I would support her if she decided to move, and that was the last I heard of the subject, until your post.
You telling people you were thinking of moving before you moved was a good thing. You planning a move, not communicating with me about it, and then telling people you were working with me is what I took issue with.
Yeah, and that's understandable. I just didn't have the full details at the time, but I do understand now.
Communication is definitely something we have to work on. Both between us and you, and between ourselves. Even after this whole mess, I feel like there were things that us mods should have communicated before taking action. This whole ordeal has definitely been a learning experience for us.
This was part of the issue, but overwhelmingly not the issue for the majority of users. This keeps being referenced as "the problem" but really isn't what people are commenting on. Just saying that because it really comes across like none of the mod team are actually listening.
So still kinda the same take for me. The whole mod team resigning, to me, makes the most sense. Not one mod seems to be replying to the complaints of the community, and is instead continuously replying with what seems like talking points which don't actually address the concerns.
So, yeah. Whole mod team leaving makes sense to me. Yes, I include you regardless of your tenure.
We know. That's why we wrote things like:
We addressed a lot of other things in the post, too. If there's anything we missed, I encourage you to voice it here.
EDIT AT THE TOP: Doing a whole lot of commenting, and a whole lot of not responding to these issues. So I'll just assume you have no response to any of these, and will stop here. Kthxbye.
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OK, I'm going to start with the quote. Let's just do that for now.
You're still not, clearly.
Then .world shouldn't have been a consideration.
Ah yes, and you shared that communication right? Not that there has been communication, but actually what was said?
First problem - "our community". You're all (mods) acting like this is something you own.
Second problem - "how we saw fit". You (mods) had a problem with what you (mods) called "heavy handed moderation". This is entirely your (mods) opinion and doesnt match the community's opinion. This should be yet another point where you (mods) should recognize that none of you are in alignment with the community, and probably should step aside.
Third problem - You (mods) have zero control over the administration and the rules. Lemmy.world has, even very recently put forth (and pulled back, but not removed - its just being reworded) a requirement around engaging with exactly the sort of people everyone is concerned about.
That post from .world should have immediately told you that a community like 196 would not do well there. But you (mods) ignored this based on "assurances".
What assurances? Let's be candid here - assurances to you are meaningless. What assurances are you providing the community? "Trust me bro"? How is that an assurance to the community? How did you (another moment of clarity should be here about you not being in alignment with the community) think people would react, knowing what .world and their admins are like?
Like I said, repeating the same stuff that is not the main problem
Which has entirely consisted of "Trust me, we totally talked to the admins, and what we want is what will happen".
Thats not an assurance to the community. That is about you (mods) being assured that you'll have control.
One of these things is not like the other....
I mean, you can. Easily. You can all resign.
Soooo many replies went ignored or just gave the same non-answer. I'd start there. Or by just resigning, which is way more efficient tbh.
Would you like me to do the same with the rest of the post, or are you seeing why the non-answer answers being given by the mod team completely miss the point?
Edit: I'll also comment preemptively on the example of heavy handed moderation.
First off, the example left out a lot of context. Context that is important. Ada, IMHO, made the right call, its the mod team that screwed up there. So calling it heavy handed or "by vibe" is just disparaging nonsense. That moment where people pointed out the example being garbage should really have been another signal to the entire mod team that they aren't the right fit.
Second, the desire (by the mod team) to move is waaaaayyyyyyy after where communication should have occurred. Asking if people agreed with the choice should have been the first step, because clearly a majority of the community agreed with Ada as well.
So even the idea of discussing a move was so far removed from when conversation should have happened, if only to get some alignment/input from the community, that this should also be a pretty bright lantern light guiding the mod team to resignation.
Yes, the community and the mods are clearly still not on the same page on this matter, despite how transparent we've been in the OP and how much I've been in my replies. "Ah, but you weren't transparent until after the fact", that's addressed later in this comment.
That's also addressed later in this comment, but for now I have a question... LW is already federated with LBZ, so how does being hosted there make a difference in terms of transphobes/etc. coming in from LW? The whole point of the fediverse is that those floodgates are already open. We already get loads of LW users on all of the LBZ subs, and we've had no issues dealing with them so far on 196. There really isn't that much to do in order to deal with it, and there are eight of us, so I don't think the absence of Ada would make that an issue either. Plus, this post demonstrates how much free time I alone have and am willing to put into this community.
(And I'm not asking this question as an implicit statement. I just think that there must be some aspect of federated platforms that I don't understand considering it's relevance to this whole ordeal. (And if you're thinking "ah, but here's what Ada said about what you don't understand about federation!" I addressed it here and here.))
I feel like this question was worded weirdly but I will answer according to my best interpretation.
We felt no need to publish other people's DMs since that's generally something you shouldn't do, especially when establishing a relationship with people... So if you want to see them for yourself, you'll have to ask Moss, since they were her and Ruud's DMs. I don't feel comfortable posting them myself.
It is "our" community in the sense that we are, and always have been, responsible for it. We're not suggesting you owe us your contributions.
To speak frankly again, I don't think the community is largely aware of the moderation that was taking place. (I mean, when is the last time you looked at the instance modlog?) Kolanaki was just one example. Maybe it'll be illuminating to share my personal reason for taking issue with Ada's moderation:
I was sexually abused when I was young, so before I understood I was trans I would say things like "I wouldn't be intimate with a trans person" because I was scared that it would complicate a matter that was already sensitive for me. I've caught a lot of flak online for saying things like that in the past despite having now embraced my identity as a trans person, but I adamantly believe the feelings I expressed were valid from my perspective at the time.
For this reason, I value giving people patience and hearing them out, even if what they said has a transphobic "vibe". (At least when what they are expressing isn't blatant transphobia). When I joined the mod team, this is one of the values I intended to bring to the team.
That being said, Ada does not give that level of patience. However, I do understand the value of curating a space exclusively dedicated to queer people and their views. Cishet people have damn near the entire internet to express their views in safety, and and Ada does what she does to guarantee a safe space for us. So I don't blame Ada for how she runs her instance, I just don't think it aligns with my goals, and many of the other mods here agree.
We also have zero control over Ada's administration, but she was not willing to let us moderate 196 as we saw fit. The .world admins, on the other hand, were.
We know, hence this part of the OP:
...
But it was a problem, so we addressed it.
I addressed this here.
We are people with our own lives and shit to deal with. We cannot respond to every reply, but I've given the 196 community an overwhelming amount of my time to address what I can, and I'm continuing to do so.
Which isn't to say I respond to every comment, but if a new concern came up that wasn't addressed in the OP, I responded to the first person to bring it up. My comment history for the past few days is evidence of this.
To speak frankly again, I've exhausted myself with how much time I've put into responding to all of the concerns. But if you feel like you have more that wasn't addressed then just say it. I'll be here, and I'll always be willing to continue sacrificing my free time for the sake of you guys understanding what happened, why, and what we are doing differently so there are no problems in the future.
I'm sorry, but I disagree for the reasons stated above. Kolanaki was banned because he was frustrated with trans people, and that is not a crime. Trans people are people, and people are frustrating sometimes. I don't see any reason to invalidate his feelings, and he should be free to express them.
This was already addressed here, and I encourage you to read Ada's reply and my reply to her. Long story short, I did tell people about this months ago in an effort to be more transparent with the community, and I was in favor of a vote, but due to some misunderstandings with Ada I had to remove what I said.
What I didn't say in that comment, though, was that the mods didn't even have time to realize or interject when the change was being made without notice.
Addressed in the previous two paragraphs, and in many of my comments elsewhere.
Addressed here and in this post.
Ok, 2/2 (I hope). Starting with a part I missed:
Hard disagree on both. Especially when the community gets locked.
I think my reply is detailed enough to explain why I say the concerns have not been addressed in any of those three parts.
So.... people didn't get asked because it was removed? So people didn't get asked. It just became a unilateral decision based on the mod team's own vibes.
"The mods" are the ones who made the change. So..... I don't follow.
That it didn't happen, yes, confirmed. There was no input from the community.
You have said you would. Do you speak for the whole mod team? Where is the response from the rest of the mod team involved in this debacle? Have folks resigned?
So still not addressed.
To start off, I just want to note that I'm not replying in anger here. I want to note that I am providing feedback - by your own request btw - for why I think the questions are unanswered, and why I think resignation of all the mods is appropriate. I'm not angry with you as a person, and I do consider what was done to be a blunder with good intentions. Unfortunately, a pretty big one, and what it says to me is either that the concerns of the community are not understood or not being provided consideration.
For the record, I do think you are considering them, because you are talking to people. I would absolutely not say that of the entire mod team though.
No, I'm saying you're still not on the same page because you still have a complete misconception of the issues at hand, which continues in the reply.
Yeah this isn't really about federation (which can be messy).
So, two issues. The first is discovery - if its on LBZ, its visible to .world on all, yes. It is not discoverable on local though since its on a different instance. So thats one item - being on local is more likely to attract the average .world user.
Two, and more important, different instance means different rules. Yes, that is why the mod team was looking to move, but lets look at that instance in particular for a moment. Keeping this aside, which is a symptom, but lets hit a few more of those symptoms for a moment. For example, admins jumping in on c/vegan and wreaking havoc. This may be a mea culpa announcement, but lets look at some of the things they did (and not the content, that is irrelevant here) as noted in their own post:
The result of all this?
Lets review that censorship one for a second:
Boy oh boy, that bolded part - by .world by the way, they bolded and I'm quoting as is - you may notice there is some similar terminology to that recent post.
Ok, lets get the next sentence in there:
Now, lets compare that sentence to the one that comes immediately before. "Do no harm" vs "imminent physical harm". There is a wide window between "no harm" and "imminent physical harm". As someone who went through clear trauma as you mentioned (which I am always sorry to hear, and I hope you've had the support you needed in the meantime, but I digress) - there is a lot in that window that fits into blatantly transphobic, racist, sexist, fascist support, etc. behavior but not "imminent physical harm". And when we put that alongside "Controversial topics can and should be discussed" (emphasis mine this time), that is a huge can of worms.
This is why I spoke about assurances - an assurance to you is not an assurance to the community. I'll get to that in a bit though.
One of the more prominent mods and posters on .world recently posted up some Matt Walsh bs - and just to note, I check the modlogs somewhat often. I have other accounts and mod some niche communities with a small number of subscribers. So, on that note, I'd ask if you've seen the .world modlogs all that much. I say that because in my opinion, there is a strong center-right lean in the moderation across the board, and that is fostered by the administration - see two linked announcements. You can see even more of this with moderation actions by admins in the more recent Luigi-inspired post. "Uncivil" and "Bad faith" are two good examples of reasons often used for this sort of moderation.
This is why I can't comprehend why anyone would ever consider .world for 196. This is why I bring up assurances - what you're told, and what has been done by admins without any repercussions are not in agreement. So why, without an assurance to the community, would the community believe that its going to be handled as a space that is safe for them?
Unfortunately I have to join an unexpected conference call, so I'll have to wrap up this up later. Some items I intend to mention tie back to whats here so its not a complete thought, but figured I may as well share in the meantime. I'll edit the rest in later, unless in the meantime you mention you'd prefer a separate comment.
Couple of issues there. For one thing, if the assurances are being given to the mod team only, then they aren't being given to the community. They are being given to the mods.
Second, no one knows what those "assurances" are. I'm not talking about posting someone else's DMs, I'm saying that recognizing people may take issue enough to even warrant that chat should be enough to know that this information would be needed. So there should have been enough thought to document what was discussed, have everyone involved know that it would be published, and do it.
Third, how do those "assurances" line up with the history of .world admins? What guarantees are being provided that they won't interject at their leisure? Why would 196 be considered unique to them, since they have done exactly what everyone is concerned about?
Plenty were missed, but lets push that aside here - why are you the only one responding to the majority of comments? Why was one mod posting, then (aside from some snarky replies) not replying to people who were concerned?
I don't expect you to reply to every comment. I expect the mod team, especially after this massive faceplant, to reply.
I have a friend who transitioned some years back. When we talk about things before transitioning, we use her previous name, because that is who she was at the time, and that is her preference.
So I went out one night with her to meet her new friend, and long story short - phrased things in a way that was completely appropriate for my friend and how she preferred, but was not for her friend. Something for which I still feel like an asshole for, though her friend understands why and we are friends as well.
Anyway, point being - this is what is ok for you. Engaging, letting them explain. Should the entire community need to? Because you'd be forcing them to. As an alternative, for example, you could let that person immediately know why, and engage with them privately instead before restoring (or restoring with an edit, whatever the case may be).
Ran out of space! Will have to do a second reply, sorry....
Do you want me to call out the issues with the post line by line? I can, but honestly I'm just going to be repeating a lot of comments made by other folks already.
Whatever you feel hasn't been addressed, go for it.
Well, its been a full day. Any comment? Responses to the issues I raised?
Everything you have asked me to address can be answered with text I've already written. So if I'm going to be doing a lot of quoting of myself, I'd rather respond later when I'm at my desktop and not on mobile.
But if you really can't wait, you can read through my comment history and the pinned post.
Happy to wait. Especially as these are repeat issues many have wanted a response to, and has absolutely not been addressed.
As long as it doesn't say something about how you should have announced the migration beforehand, in which case no further reply is needed.
I wouldn't hold my breath. There are 150 comments in this thread, all the issues have been expressed there.
The mods are almost sealioning at this point.
JAQing off, but somehow it's "just answering questions"
Nice one ha ha
Oh I don't expect meaningful replies to any points. If there were, more of the comments and questions from the community would have actually been responding to, rather than trying to matrix-style bullet dodge (but without success).