64
submitted 5 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

Hello comrades, it's time for a new discussion thread for The Will to Change, covering Chapters 8 (Popular Culture: Media Masculinity) and 9 (Healing Male Spirit). Thanks to everyone who participated the last few weeks, I’m looking forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts again. And if you’re just joining the book club this week, welcome!

Putting the thread up early since I won't be able to do so tomorrow. This'll stay up a little longer than usual as well so everyone has the opportunity to share their thoughts during/after the busy holidays.

Chapter 8 briefly surveys popular media depictions of masculinity and how media either reinforces patriarchal roles in its male heroes, or forces them to reject those roles in favor of a healthier sense of self. Chapter 9 discusses healthy vs unhealthy conceptions of intimacy and how men are incapable of true intimacy until they allow themselves to be vulnerable and reject the dominator model of relationships.

If you haven't read the book yet but would like to, its available free on the Internet Archive in text form, as well as an audiobook on Youtube with content warnings at the start of each chapter, courtesy of the Anarchist Audio Library, and as an audiobook on our very own TankieTube! (note: the YT version is missing the Preface but the Tankietube version has it)

As always let me know if you'd like to be added to the ping list!

Our FINAL discussion thread will be on Chapters 10 (Reclaiming Male Integrity), 11 (Loving Men), and the book as a whole, beginning around New Years Day

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[-] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

Caliban was extremely popular a few years ago. My understanding is that so far as history goes, it is built on foundation of error (working mirror). I don't know if there is any way to address that to avoid implanting a totally wrong view of history.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It's too bad, because economically it makes total sense. It might just have been too ambitious to definitely locate the phenomenon in time and space(in European middle ages). It probably took place then to some limited degree quantitatively, but the qualitative change came later and closer to modern times.

I'm still convinced by the core economic idea, I just think about it happening mostly after the enclosure of the commons: The division between paid productive labor and unpaid reproductive work is useful for capital in dividing the working class and providing an initial push for the circulation of capital similar to the enclosure of the commons and colonialism. But it also creates a contradiction. And while this is not the first origin of patriarchy, it determines the form that patriarchy takes under capitalism.

1.) About the dividing the working class part: I imagine male workers, who were driven from their land and whos commons were confiscated, who had to move to the cities work nothing but their ability to work, who still remember the ability to live off the land first and only then surrender part of the harvest as surplus. They are made complicit in their own exploitation by the promise, that, when they come home from the factories and mines, at least they are the absolute patriarchal ruler of the household, served by women and children. The newly doubly free worker might even have asked: "But how am I ever going to marry, if I have nothing to my name? Which woman, or her family, would accept me?". And the new version of patriarchy answered:"Don't worry, for they will have even less than you. Without wages or land or commons they will depend on you and be forced to serve you".

But most of this probably took place after the middle ages during industrialization. If one really wants to find the early beginnings of this in history, I think it would be worthwhile to look at medieval Italian city states and later the Dutch trade and finance empire, like Giovanni Arrighi does in "the long twentieth century", except with a feminist lense.

2.) About the part on an initial push for the economy: This is tricky to locate historically without extensive economic data, because there is a dialectic at play here. Depending on the development of the productive capacities, class conciseness and the rate of profit, it can be advantageous for capital to have women and children work for wages in factories or for free at home. That's why capitals approach shifted multiple times over history and the corresponding ideology shifted with it. It's roughly similar to how both outsourcing and inhousing can be advantageous for companies, both mergers and splits, depending on circumstances.

In the same way, women and children where in some places put to work first in factories, because they were easier to exploit than men. Later they were told to stay at home when men were integrated into the work force and unpaid reproductive labor contributed indirectly to profits, as long as profits were high and margins large. Then in our times, they were told to get a job and shoulder the double burden of productive and reproductive work, because the rate of profit fell fast enough and other possibilities to expand the circulation of capital were exhausted. And now this helps to expand the mass of capital by enlarging the workforce and even keep up profits too by keeping wages low. Both became necessary under circumstances of a falling rate of profit and smaller margins and fewer markets left for capitalism to expand too.

All this complicates matters and some (not all) of the critique against Federici might even come from misunderstanding dialectics, where people assume cause and effect are always linear and always point in the same direction, disregarding the totality. Like in the linked post, where the author claims that some portion of women marrying late and working in cities at some point in time disproves the core of Federicis thesis. It doesn't from an economic perspective, but I get why it can be disappointing for historians.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on alternative frontends that protect your privacy.

this post was submitted on 24 Dec 2024
64 points (100.0% liked)

menby

8048 readers
1 users here now

A space for masculine folks to talk about living under patriarchy.

Detoxing masculinity since 1990!

You don’t get points for feminism, feminism is expected.

Guidelines:

  1. Questions over blame
  2. Humility over pride
  3. Wisdom over dogma
  4. Actions over image

Rules (expansions on the guidelines):

  1. Mistakes should be learning experiences when possible.
    • Do not attack comrades displaying vulnerability for what they acknowledge are mistakes.
    • If you see good-faith behavior that's toxic, do your best to explain why it's toxic.
    • If you don't have the energy to engage, report and move on.
    • This includes past mistakes. If you've overcome extreme reactionary behavior, we'd love to know how.
    • A widened range of acceptable discussion means a greater need for sensitivity and patience for your comrades.
    • Examples:
      • "This is reactionary. Here's why."
      • "I know that {reality}, but I feel like {toxicity}"
      • "I don't understand why this is reactionary, but it feels like it {spoilered details}"
  2. You are not entitled to the emotional labor of others.
    • Constantly info-dumping and letting us sort through your psyche is not healthy for any of us.
    • If you feel a criticism of you is unfair, do not lash out.
    • If you can't engage self-critically, delete your post.
    • If you don't know how to phrase why it's unfair, say so.
  3. No singular masculine ideal.
    • This includes promoting gender-neutral traits like "courage" or "integrity" as "manly".
    • Suggestions for an individual to replace a toxic ideal is fine.
    • Don't reinforce the idea the fulfillment requires masculinity.
    • This also includes tendency struggle-sessions.
  4. No lifestyle content.
    • Post the picture of your new grill in !food (feminine people like grills too smh my head).
    • Post the picture of the fish you caught in !sports (feminine people like fish too smdh my damn head).
    • At best, stuff like this is off-topic. At worst, it's reinforcing genders norms..
    • If you're not trying to be seen as masculine for your lifestyle content, it's irrelevant to this comm. If you are trying to be seen as masculine, let's have a discussion about why these things are seen as masculine.

Resources:

*The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love by Bell Hooks

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS