I hate how “anti-war” has been hijacked by these people to mean, let imperialist countries invade whoever they want with no consequences. (in the case of tankies, any imperialist country that isn’t in NATO).
this post was submitted on 14 Dec 2024
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I’m not too thick to understand you have no way of knowing the intent of @[email protected]. I’m not defending Putin’s egregious invasion. But, that doesn’t mean I can’t recognize American imperialism had a hand in it’s provocation.
By stating it was provoked, you're defending Putin. Unleashing rape and murder on a civilian population is not something you "provoke". Ukraine has a sovereign right to wish to join NATO or the EU, as any sovereign nation does. Putin does not get a vote in that.
Remember the many times Russia tried to join NATO? Probably not.
Yes, and I remember Russia demanding unreasonable terms as a condition for entering. They sabotaged that themselves. Russia demanded all kinds of foreign policy from NATO and demanded a special status within the alliance. They also did not want to follow the normal procedure for joining, like the other members did.
This is all from your own source by the way. Did you even read it or are you just throwing links around hoping people don't read them?
Then, surely you are aware that American “Shock Therapy” created the conditions that led to the current situation.
Which is also irrelevant, because it doesn't in any way excuse Putins decision to invade Ukraine, raping and killing innocent civilians as a result.
Regardless, Russia is and always was a sovereign nation. The US can advise whatever they like, Russian leadership ultimately decided what actually got implemented. Not to mention the pretty terrible state the Soviet economy was in already.
I hate to be the one to tell you this, and I mean no offense, but you just don’t understand; we’re not as moral as we think. 🤔
Lmao as if I don't know? Philosophy experiments are fun and all but humans just suck at conceptualizing beyond what we can see. Random kids across the ocean people have a hard time empathising with unprompted.
Regardless, this is another completely irrelevant article you've shared. Perhaps one could argue the west is standing by as a Ukrainian child is drowning. But that's still infinitely more moral and ethical than taking the child from his mother, dragging it into a pond, raping it there, then shooting it, all in front of their mother, only to then call it "provoked" and "self-defense", all because mommy decided to open a Tinder account and matched with a couple western guys. Because that's all justified of course, only a couple decades ago were you their abusive boyfriend so clearly it's justified, right?
Such a paragon of morality, that Putin fella.
Purely defensive.
Random blogger tweets unsourced claims. More at eleven. Also completely unrelated.
Still not seeing how any of this suggests there's anything remotely close to a justification of Putins invasion of Ukraine.
I fail to see how any of this relates to someone being called a Nazi apologist. You’ve created a straw man that I support Putin’s invasion (even though I stated that I am opposed). Adults with higher level critical thinking understand that one can be opposed to Putin and Russian imperialism, while also being opposed to NATO and western imperialism. Even with my limited IQ of 142, I can avoid the binary fallacy that if Dugin inspired Russian imperialists are the bad guys, then, by default, Ukraine and their western imperialist NATO supporters must be the good guys.
You started with the claim that Putin was somehow "provoked" into committing mass rape and murder on an innocent civilian population. That's an imperialist/fascist talking point, literally used by the Nazis back when Hitler invaded Poland.
At no point have I claimed you support the invasion (that's a strawman you just made up), only that you made excuses for it. Hence why you were called a Nazi apologist.
Ah, that explains it. You must have at least 160 IQ in order to understand that making excuses for Putins invasion is morally indefensible.
Also, pretending both-sidesism is somehow enlightened is hilarious. In this conflict, it's pretty fucking clear who is on the moral highground, ulterior motives be damned. Putin sent in a military that rapes and murders innocent civilians, NATO has provided weapons to the Ukrainian military to prevent that. Even if you believe NATO has a secret master plan to topple Putin or whatever, defending an innocent civilian population is a good thing regardless of any geopolitical reasoning involved.
I cited the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, to demonstrate that it’s not just the pejorative “tankies” to make the assertion:
Some of us are more concerned with human lives than preserving imaginary lines drawn a map.
The writer of that article is an apologist as well. He cites tons of imperialist arguments for why Ukraine as a sovereign nation apparently doesn't matter and how everyone should bend to Russia because they are a "great power" (an imperialist concept). He has also written other articles that seek to blame the West for what happened, despite having terrible and easily countered arguments for it. His article on "western meddling in Ukraine" is especially terrible. In it, he claims EU meddling was brazen, because (and I'm not joking here) one high-ranking EU official expressed her support for the protesters and handed out cookies.
The US meddling was supposedly more brazen, with a leaked phone call discussing who the US would like to see take power. But as others have already noted:
It's also blatantly ignoring that nothing unconstitutional happened (other than the firing on protesters killing over a hundred civilians), that Yanukovych was voted out of office by a large majority of the democratically elected parliament and that the first thing they did was hold new elections.
It's also blatantly ignoring Russian meddling, providing 2 billion to Yanukovych and effectively ordering him to crush the protests (possibly the final trigger that led to his removal).
You can't accept the arguments in that article without also accepting that Ukraine is a vassal state to Russia, which it just isn't. Russia could have done plenty to make themselves more popular with their neighbours, but never did. They did nothing but demand, demand, demand. Nobody is required to listen to those unreasonable demands, and claiming that not doing so is "provocative" is total horseshit.
If only that was true for Putin.
I see you are not fond of citing sources that can be verified. I don’t have such misgivings:
The Spy War: How the C.I.A. Secretly Helps Ukraine Fight Putin
That’s a lot of cookies 🍪 and Fremdschämen
No doubt Putin and Russia were meddling in Ukraine before 2014; but let’s not pretend NATO and the U.S. did not influence the situation.
Those phone calls, as I already mentioned, did not reveal a secret CIA partnership with Ukraine. They revealed the US was not up to date on what was happening at the time and that they were in the beginning stages of figuring out what to do in Ukraine. Russian propaganda claims otherwise but there's never been any evidence of that.
The CIA building a bunker to run ops from makes sense since Putin immediately invaded Crimea and sparked the Donbas war. That was built well after the revolution had already taken place. It is not evidence of meddling before or during the revolution.
Here it is: https://www.democracynow.org/2014/3/3/who_is_provoking_the_unrest_in
Taken from Wikipedia: "Russian propaganda" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#%3A%7E%3Atext=%5B337%5D-%2CRussian+propaganda%2C-Russian+propaganda+portrayed
It's really not that difficult to find. At this point you're just spewing nonsense. Time for a block.
Nonsense? Is the National Endowment for Democracy’s role after the Orange Revolution and before the Euromaidan nonsense?
Oh look, actual Nazis.
Sorry I irritated your cognitive dissonance. Best of luck 🤞