this post was submitted on 14 Oct 2024
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And voting third party is saying "I don't care whether we get a bit of genocide or a lot of genocide," which itself is legitimizing genocide.
"Harm reduction" is not in the vocabulary of these internet addicted "intellectuals".
Nor are things like "strategic voting." It's really unfortunate
No people know what it means to pick the less disgusting turd out of the bowl. They're just tired of eating shit for "strategic reasons".
Genocide is binary.
Anything that furthers genocide is not capable of being harm reduction.
I agree, we should just not vote to stick it to the DNC. When red voters show up to the polls and blue voters don't and Trump wins, I'm sure all the transgender people in America whose lives are now in danger will sleep much better at night knowing that the blood of all those Palestinians who are still dying because Trump is funneling bombs to Israel faster than Biden was isn't on your hands, because you didn't help put him in office.
I think the gulf you are seeing between your position and people saying they will vote third party is because you seem to believe that Biden has been pushing back on Israel, and many of us do not beleive he's been doing anything but putting on a show for the rubes.
You are framing it as a lot of genocide vs a little genocide, and thats position doesnt sound right given the actions we have seen in the past few days. American forces are about to directly enter the fight with Israel, and Biden seems to be setting up a mobilization the entirety of the US military when one of our THAAD operators inevitably gets killed. and congress has been bought off so no one is checking what the president is doing.
Yes, Trump is a monster. But on this issue we dont know that Biden is any better-- and it sure does seem there has been a lot of lying going on.
I don't think it's reasonable at all to say that Trump would somehow be less bad on Palestine than Harris., so I think we can say Trump will be at least as bad on that issue. For the sake of argument, I'll be willing to accept an "equally bad" framing on that one particular issue.
But Harris isn't going to enable the genocide of LGBTQ+ Americans, the genocide of Ukrainians, the subjugation and killing (through medical neglect) of a huge number of women, etc. etc. etc.
So even the strongest argument for "Harris is just as bad" that I can view as anywhere even remotely reasonable falls massively short. Trump is going to enable far more genocide than Harris, and I cannot see any reasonable argument that views it even as a trade-off of what bad things are going to happen, because as far as I can tell literally everything that's bad about Harris (and there is plenty), if Trump winds up back in office it'll be as bad or even worse. And there simply isn't a third option.
Sounds reasonable. I think when people discuss this theres a lot of talking past each other. I think progressives see an opportunity to play chicken with supporting Harris until she gives us something for it. Some progressives will go all the way and not vote for any candidate, and some will cave at the last minute because of the dynamic you described. But just giving up now and voting for her while she is doing something we hate is a waste of a good crisis. I'd also like to see the DNC coem up short looking for votes from the middle, which seems inevitable to me. Good civil chat, thanks.
As much as I want them to move, I cannot endorse wanting them to come up short because the alternative is so catastrophic. I do, however, truly believe that if we can marginalise the Republican party we can move Democrats somewhat to the left, which is my medium term electoral strategy while working towards a long term where we can actually get real leftists in power.
It's not just that Harris is going to do things we hate. It's that Trump is going to do all those same things and more, and playing electoral chicken with the Democrats is quite literally risking the lives of many of my friends.
Genocide is binary.
Trying to make it analog is just trying to justify the unjustifiable.
I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm saying that more people dying is worse, so I'm choosing the path that has the least death.
Pretending more people dying is somehow not worse, however, is attempting to justify the unjustifiable.
Pretending that the current path doesn't have us give bombs to Israel that they then intentionally drop on hospitals full of children is the path you're choosing.
I literally just watched a little girl hooked up to an IV burn to death from a bomb you paid for.
That is the path you support.
I don't support that path - I just recognise that the only alternative also includes all of that and the subjugation of American women, further endangerment of LGBT folks, etc.
You do support that path.
You are actively doing so right now.
The point about genocide being binary is that someone is either willing to commit it, or they aren't.
Biden and Harris(and Trump, presumably) are willing to commit genocide. The basis of that willingess is an underlying belief that some people matter more than other people. And some people don't matter at all.
And you hope that by supporting the people that hold that belief that they won't add your group to the list of people that don't matter to them.
There were lots of Germans that felt the same way. We have literal books of history and poems telling us that they were wrong. Fuck, I know you've heard at least one poem making this point.
'''First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist.
'''
That's you. Doing everything you can to ignore the Democrats already signaling that they would be willing to throw trans people under the bus.
You think my side are being morally condescending and use phrases like 'high horse' But that is just people who support the Democratic party trying to justify their own willingness to work with genociders. I'm not trying to pass moral judgement on you and your side.
I'm trying to explain to you that the moral quandary is not new. It is old, and has happened many times before, and your strategy HAS NEVER WORKED BEFORE.
Imagine you have two children, and someone kidnaps you and them and tells you to choose which one lives, and if you don't choose, they will kill both.
If you don't pick, who is responsible for killing the children? You for not choosing or the person that pulled the trigger?
EDIT: not sure why the poem is not formatting correctly.