this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2024
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I am an actual centrist and not a caricature. These memes constantly portray us as morons who think "both sides are equal" which is honestly just more inflammatory tribalism which makes it easier to villainize everyone who isn't in your in group. Its the ultimate strawman, and its somehow super effect, since any time I try to make this point I'm downvoted into the floor. I can recognize the flaws in both sides and make informed decisions. Just because I don't wave your fucking banner doesn't mean I'm on the other side it means I vote with my brain instead of blind allegiance.
The problem is that stupid hard left - hard right tribalism is destroying the country. We will NEVER see the changes we want in this country if we are too busy villainizing each other, all that does is push us farther left/right.
If you want real change you should be pushing not for your fairy tale extreme right or extreme left America, push for the first step towards cohesion, we need to overhaul our voting system to ranked choice, this would allow us to have more than 2 parties. So we can get actual hard left, left, center, right, hard right candidates. This will allow us to have parties that truly help our country, and actually represent the people in us. It will curtail extreme political ideologies by allowing, what is a significantly small but loud portion of our population to flounder and die on the ends of the spectrum, and get more common sense political parties into power. Sadly this will never happen, because we have become too good at forcing significant portions of the country into fighting each other versus changing the system.
All of this being said its super clear in this specific election there is only 1 side not trying to steer us off of a cliff. But that isn't the point, the point is we need to come together somehow to fix this broken 2 party system before it destroys the country. I don't feel properly represented, do you?
One problem with this analysis is that while the far left is an issue on lemmy, when it comes to the broader electorate they're a vanishing minority. So they're just safely ignored by all parties.
The far right is in control of one of the two major parties.
They're not equivalent. Trying to be a "Centrist" between them is putting yourself on the right wing.
I think your missing the point of my post. This tribalism is destroying us.
Right wing extremism is destroying us. Left wing extremism could, hypothetically, destroy us, if it existed in any real form. But it doesn't.
Fascists should not be negotiated with or tolerated. They should be excluded from decision making processes. It is perfectly fine (maybe even a moral necessity) to be tribal if your tribe is "no fascism".
There's no need to use weasel words like "tribalism" as if it's this broad, over arching societal issue spanning multiple viewpoints. One group is the problem. Only one. Attacking that group is not tribalism. It's self-defense.
I almost agree with you, but it lacks the view of how all of this became out of left side virtue signaling. Cancel culture (thought very much overblown in reality) truly created the far right of today. Obviously the far right is a real threat, ignoring how the far right of today came out of pointing the finger at people of the right and calling them racist homophobic incels for making a joke, all that did was force people, who maybe made a joke in bad taste, forced to be on the side of actual zenophobes. Now they truley are everything we claimed they were now, because that is the only side left that will have them.
Im not saying any of it wasnt warrented, its about understanding how we got here, and knowing that we cant keep doing it. You cant call half of the entire country racist gay bashers and find any solution outside of civil war. I dont want that do you? Because thats where its going, many people want to move towards the middle but a middle doesnt exist to move towards.
No. That's quite identical to saying "black rights movements created the KKK". Fascists will fash no matter what the progressive people do. The way to stop fascism from rising isn't concessions in policy, it's a total cancel of their presence in media and public spaces, by whatever means necessary.
I can damn right do it if they are. You can't tolerate racism and homophobia just because you don't wanna annoy the intolerants.
Maybe, hear me out, maybe, if we didn't want fascists to start a civil war, we shouldn't have allowed them on TV from the start, radicalising people against queer and women's rights, we shouldn't have allowed them to take control of social media, and we shouldn't have allowed them to take control of institutions like the supreme court. That's how you avoid fascism.
I never said concessions in policy, I said that when you demonize people, you create an other side, people naturally form groups, now the other side is larger. Its like how anti vaxxers became a thing because we all joked about how they were dumb animals instead of ignoring them back in the early 2000's. Back then anti vaxxing was truly just a meme that only a few people did, but we pointed and laughed, which created a platform for stupid people, and they used it to recruit more.
You're ignoring the entire rest of my argument so I cant really respond.
100% agree, we shouldn't have given hatred a platform, but how did they get it that platform? Was it maybe early 2010s cancel culture? Again id advise you to look into trevors axiom, humans are simple and easily manipulated, attacking a thing creates a platform for people to recruit from.
The fucking media did that, not a tiny group of mentally ill chronically online tumblr teenagers.
Your argument boils down to "look, if we just give the Nazis the sudetenland, they'll stop".
Yes the media did it, then we did it online everywhere, in our social circles, on facebook, endlessly. And while i recognize that its the media fault, i can also accept the role i played in it as a stupid teenager participating in it within my own circles.
Your second argument is just in such bad faith, i feel like I'm arguing with an angsty teen. I never said we give into what they want and let them run wild. I said we need to understand them and knock off the constant demonization or all you're going to do is bolster their numbers, fight them without the endless ad hominem, argue against the idea and not the individual, stop labeling everyone you don't like a facist, because when you do that you're essentially just recruiting for actual facists by pushing more and more moderate people to them. I'm fairly certain at this point you still wont understand what I'm saying and you will come up with some antagonizing catch phrase in response so I'm done here, id hope you spend some time thinking on this, but it sounds like youve made up your mind.
THEY ARE LITERALLY FASCISTS. IT'S NOT HYPERBOLE. THEY WAVE NAZI FLAGS.
Jesus christ you milquetoast fuck, wake up and smell the crisis.
Called it
At some point, it's willful. I think you're past that point, now. Next step is appeasement, then open collaboration. You'd better pray your Quisling ass gets saved by us on the left using "extremist rhetoric".
Grow up
The overton window has been pushed so far right that literal fascism is back on the table, so where does that place centrists?
In the center of left and right. Think this is the root of the problem, people hear centrist and they think center of overton window, I have never and will never mean this.
Is the center of left and right between the US left and right or in general? Even without the overton window the US left is mostly dems who support corporations and occasionally throw social programs in as well, while the right is teetering on fascism. If you're looking at all of US history there are periods where social programs, workers rights, and higher taxes on the rich had more support, but again you'd have to balance that with the historic fascism.
If you're talking in general, do you look at the furthest left and right political philosophies to ever have been implemented? Because while you can get leftist policies beyond what the US does, you've still got the nazis to contend with. So I guess I'm still not really sure where a centrist of your stripe is looking when deciding what center line to walk.
Just general left and right. I think the majority of the issues people have with centrists is they're looking at the overton window (and also lets be real the majority of americans thoughts dont go past "my side best side"). Which honestly i think even acknowledging the overton helps guide us farther right by allowing it to change what we see as left and right.
I'm bisexual and an atheist. Do you honestly expect me to have cohesion with the alt right, who would like to see me assaulted/deported/dead? This is a ridiculous suggestion.
The alt right has made themselves very clear, they want to end democracy, and install a theocracy. At best they simply want to destroy all progress and protections that the queer community has had, and at worst they straight up want the death penalty.
You can't make friends with somebody trying to kill you (directly or indirectly).
Ranked choice would certainly be better (approval and star would be best), but there is no way that a change like that fixes the problem on its own. This is a cultural problem, a problem with election financial regulations, it's a problem with the media, etc.
You don't cure fascism with ranked choice voting.
I'm not saying be friends of the right, I'm saying that both sides demonizing each other only pushes the left farther left and right farther right. Until it becomes untenable and the country unravels, which is where it is going. See trevors axiom.
Really? I believe you do fix facism with ranked choice. Allowing us actual representation with multiple parties would allow for things like trump to be forced to make their own party, which would have zero real power, because the majority of people wouldnt have rallied behind him, the only reason he has as much sway as he does now is because moderate republicans felt forced to vote for him purely through 2 party tribelism.
So are you saying we should just not point out that they are fascists? Because calling them (rightfully) fascist is demonizing.
And that would be great, but ranked choice alone doesn't get us to actual representation. As long as lobbying is still legal, the problem will persist. As long as SCOTUS remains an unelected political position, the problem will persist. And so on.
There are a million reasons why our elections and political system is fucked. Disproportional voting systems is only one of them.
Great question, Lets try not calling every single person who votes republican a facist (even though we know thats were its going, a majority of the voters are truly victims of rhetoric), because then you force them to only be allowed to associate with facists. Make sure to keep it clear that trump and his chronies are the facists, and remember that the republican voters are victims (of their own ignorance? yes, but also from the hands of the biollionaire media moguls, and a country that has been cutting back education for this exact reason).
So in my first post i mentioned that ranked choice voting is only the first step, i believe abolishing the two party system is the only way we can ever achieve the next goals youve mentioned. ESPECIALLY when its clear if u read every post here that both sides of the aisles refuse to work together, so we cant affect any of those changes. A two party system will naturally bring both extremes of the aisle back in and then we can actually fix the other problems plaguing us.
I don't. But I will still call republicans/GOP voters fascist sympathizers, because at a bare minimum if you're still voting red, you're sympathetic to Trump and therefore sympathetic to fascism. That's still demonizing language, and it is deserved.
And for those of his supporters who are fervent, and genuinely believe in his messaging, they're clearly fascists. Nazis didn't get a pass for falling victim to rhetoric, neither do fervent Trump supporters.
And better voting systems will never be achievable until the two party system is abolished. The DNC and GOP establishment are both married to the two party system. We either take over the DNC with reformists, or things will continue to degrade until the point where people have nothing left to lose and take to the streets violently.
I'd recommend you look into approval and star voting, as RCV has a number of critical weaknesses.
Yes keep pushing people closer to the middle farther to the right, dont try to meet them in middle in ideology, tell them theyre facists sympathizers so they go farther right.
Yeah i agree with the fervant supporters, theyre fully in a cult now, nothing will bring them out of it.
Yeah ive said about the same thing in other comments on this thread, its a pipe dream, but i can see no other way the country doesnt slip into destruction, so ill keep advocating for it.
I will take anything that removes our 2 party system, i dont care what it is. But RCV has name recognition at this point.
I never said anything about the middle. I was specific to the GOP/Trump supporters.
If you vote for a fascist, or support a fascist, you are a fascist sympathizers at a bare minimum. We're not getting out of this situation by shielding fascist sympathizers from criticism. We didn't stop racists from being racist by shielding them from criticism.
Dealing with this requires criticism, and forcing them to see the error of their ways whether they like it or not.
The germans didn't change their minds until they were forcibly marched to the camps to see the death and destruction they wrought upon the jews and other prisoners.
I'm glad we can agree on this.
If we are going to put effort into fixing this problem we should fix it right, we shouldn't take half measures.
So does McDonald's but that doesn't mean it is a good choice.
But there are moderate republicans that have voted red for so long they cant vote blue because of habit and endless rhetoric. While they are facist sympathizers in that they vote red with their ehad in the sand, wether they know it or not, what do you gain by calling them that? Nothing really, its just inflammatory, and it will drive them farther towards the facist ideology as it will be the only place that will accept them.
Hard disagree. You should look into how to change peoples minds, because if you start by calling them a facist sympathizer its over. This is the biggest reason I'm against this kind of speech, while true, that person wont identify as such, but they will recognize the attack on them, put up their guard, and then its done. If you want to convince people of stuff, you have to find middle ground with them first and then broach topics from your point of view without speaking in antagonizing labels, or find a way to show how you both actually want the same thing, its a slow process, but it requires finding common ground to approach the topics you really want to convince them on from.
This just shows how people need proof to accept things sometimes, the conversation is about changing minds and reducing polarization though, so I don't know what point you're trying to make with this. If its that they need to be called facists to learn, you are mistaken. Personal attacks never lead to a change of mind. You are better off showing (note: not calling, but showing) how the republican party are facists, than by calling the voters facists. In fact even using the word facist wont help, you may have better progress by getting them to agree the constitution is a marvelous document we should protect, they will agree, this is common ground, then you say something like "its a real shame it doesn't hold the supreme court accountable for bribes though" or maybe "its a real shame that they are trying to give the executive branch unchecked power" as this is definitely not what the framers ever had in mind, its the exact opposite,. But this is how you argue stuff to affect change.
Great is the enemy of good, anything that gets rid of the 2 party system while allowing multiple parties can and should be supported whole heartedly. You cant get hung up on finding the best solution when the solution presented helps us not steer off of the cliff. But yes, we should fight for the best system, but rally behind whichever one is chosen in the end, much like every election, you wish the candidate was inline with your views, but you'll swallow and vote for what is available anyways.
It is better than our current system, this is good enough for me, and it should be for you, but again, any system that allows for multiple parties is a good choice.
I'm not seeking to gain anything. But I do want to live in reality, and so I will call a fascist sympathizer a fascist sympathizer.
Those lifelong GOP voters were already going to end up fully in cult mode in support of fascism, or they were eventually going to snap out of it. Calling them what they are doesn't change that.
They put up their guard 8 years ago during the 2016 election. Nothing you say to them will change anything.
There are some people who aren't worth convincing though. And they're called fascist sympathizers. It is not possible to convince them to change course.
And right after that they'll vote Trump anyways.
I never said perfection was required. I am simply saying, if we are going to spend effort on election reform it should be the best option. The resources needed to run an election is pretty much the same regardless of which type it is.
It sounds like were at an impasse, I want to fix the problem before it evolves farther, but you think its already past saving, or at the very least you can only see a route to saving the country that goes through calling half the country fascists and hoping they listen.
You do realize that only about 1/3rd of the country actually votes/voted for Trump, right? And of that third, not all of them are fervent supporters/outright fascists. If half of his voters are fervent supporters, that means only about 1/6th of the country is fascist, and another 1/6th sympathetic. You are overstating this.
But yeah, there is definitely an impasse with the rest.
I misspoke, I believe you said facist sympathizers if they vote for trump previously.
In the US you may as well be a communist.
It will never happen, dems and gop would have to work together to dilute their own power? Its a pipe dream to be sure, but the only way i think the country can fix itself.
Welcome to Revolutionary Socialism.
Removing a two party system is not socialism by anyone's definition of the word though?
Alright, I guess revolutionary revolutionarianism?
So i was going to say that this isn't even revolutionary, its just representation. Now I'm chuckling thinking about how the founders warned us against the poison of a two party system, and they WERE revolutionaries, so shit maybe haha.
So I think people like me are one of the groups you need to convince. I used to be more of a Centrist and used to make sure I at least understoid where both sides are coming from, to try to establish common ground and a way forward.
But we’re so divided now and the “sides” are completely alien, binary, with nothing in common. I can no longer see wtf “the other side” is thinking, how that makes any sense, or what sane person could support it. Maybe a big part of it is pundits and politicians “saying the quiet part out loud”, admitting to denying reality, admitting to offensive stereotypes and goals, being an proud of actions that in previous years would lose their entire audience, admitting to playing political games, corruption , or obstruction as the only goal. Even if you claim those are extremists, those are the voices of the Right and to all appearances people are voting for them against their own best interests, their humanity, and toward fascism, corruption, hatred. Most no longer seem to bother expressing any constructive goal. Meanwhile an entire generation of Republicans is retiring out of the mainstream to be replaced with that extremism. I may not agree with Mitt Romney but he recognized realities, had constructive goals that I could understand, he was willing to put in effort to achieve them and he was generally honest. I can work with that. Where are those Republicans?
Maybe it’s the media degenerating but I make more effort than ever to look for balanced views, avoid outrage clickbait, step outside my echo chamber but it no longer works
Maybe it’s my environment. I’ve spent decades in a state that consistently votes for one party and no one campaigns in a non-swing state anymore, so maybe there’s just no one with a sane version of what the heck they’re thinking. But Mitt Romney was one of the very few Republicans from my state and he came together with Democrats to agree on universal healthcare that later came to the national level as ACA. They made something happen with something for everyone. But then again I’m proud of my state. I’m a proud of compassion toward others, leadership in healthcare and education, quality of life. We vote for things that make this one of the best states to live in. I understand others may think that as well, but how can you keep voting for people who lose jobs, reject healthcare, deny reality, dilute your children’s education, keep your state poor and downtrodden. How can you vote for someone with pride in their ignorance, their maliciousness? How can you vote in the face of fact checking, self contradictions, and some of the offensive attitudes some politicians have? Stand up for yourself and vote for someone who wants to build your future.
It’s really difficult to understand the other side of the political spectrum. I don’t know how to reconcile the destructive, fascist, racist views so many politicians keep espousing with their constituents or what could possess people to vote for some of it
Yeah me neither. When the sides get too far out it breeds vocal minorities swaying people who used to be center out to their corners. I fucking hate it.
Too many people misattribute center to mean center of existing parties, that isnt what it means
That's a lot of words for saying you haven't ever read a book
You can tell someone has read a lot based on a 14 word insult, you got me.
Sure, I'll answer your comment in more detail.
First of all, you saw a post about the left and the right, and you automatically went to talk about the USA as if it was a USA specific meme.
Secondly, there's no problem with "the far left and the far right" in the USA. There's a problem of a far right party called republican, and a milquetoast party called democrat. There's no far left with representation in the USA since McCarthyism. There's no "polarisation between far left and far right", there's nobody in the US advocating expropriation of the means of production, there's a party with a milquetoast rightist genocide supporter, and another party with a literal pedophile maniac who'd bomb Palestine even harder. There's no leftist calling for relax of tensions with China and Russia, no leftist for the decolonization of Puerto Rico, no leftist for the establishing of a quality public retirement pension.
You're a centrist complaining about "polarization" and about "both sides" when there's a far right party and leftist progressive people have no representation. There's a problem with the right wing polarization of the USA, not the left wing polarization.
True but left rhetoric was rampant throughout the 2010s and it polarized the right into the facist shithole it is today. Look into trevors axiom, attacking a thing publicaly creates a platform for a thing. Its what happened to anti vax, used to be a meme, now its a significant portion of the population.
Again, no. The funding that pro-fascist media like Fox or Ben Shapiro or the Daily Wire get is what polarised the right, not a few SJWs on the internet and the #MeToo movement.
True. Fox, Shapiro, and how do you miss the original right wing shithead Rush Limbaugh. Have you ever listened to what they say? I wouldn't blame you for not, but all it is is putting a lens on shit like cancel culture, tricking them into believing that's the way the world is ,well maybe 20% that and 80% fabricating their own new lies, but its almost entirely built off of stuff that was all originally made throughout regular news which anyone could see, which allowed people who didn't like louis c.k. being canceled because they liked his comedy and now they're mad, but look fox news agrees with me, ill start watching their news instead. People as a whole are extremely simple.
Its also ignoring how a lot of people on the right were raised that way, so these thoughts aren't even their own, they're victims in all of this too. Useful idiots yes, but also victims. I knew many people who voted for trump only because Bernie wasn't allowed to run. Many trump voters just want to burn down the system that has robbed them of the life the country used to promise us, they see trump as that cure. they're wrong, but the intention is important in finding common ground. In fact when I meet them, unless they're the super unhinged maga hat wearing dipshits, which has definitely become more common. I mean meeting the "anything but dems" voters, I have real talks with them, when u get past the rhetoric the majority of them want the same stuff as anyone else, they want a home, they want a life, they want to be paid well, they dont want a billionaire class ruling us instead of ourselves. They've just been manipulated into thinking the republican party is the only way they'll get it. This is why i preach cohesion. So many of us want the same thing but were too busy fighting this culture war, which the majority of Americans wouldn't care about if the entirety of news media wasn't shoving it down our throats, all paid for by billionaires that want us to keep fighting a culture war, so we forget they're the true enemy.
This.