this post was submitted on 21 May 2024
262 points (86.6% liked)

World News

38979 readers
2296 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News [email protected]

Politics [email protected]

World Politics [email protected]


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

"What's happening in Gaza is not genocide. We reject that," Biden said at a Jewish American Heritage Month event at the White House.

I can't tell if he's pandering or trying to lose the election

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago (2 children)

You don't need to be successful to have committed the crime.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

I see it as a classic intent vs outcome. If someone tries to commit atrocities and fails then their moral character is just as bad. People can change and reform but the attempt, exuberance, and time involved are all bigger signals than how the victim is affected. Incompetence can't be a defense for evil at a certain point.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Technically is doing a lot of work here, that was the point.

That being said, requirement for success varies by crime (murder charges are only used if it works), and success usually has to be reasonably forseeable in the cases where it isn't. Genocide would definitely be in the latter category, and as it is it will be very hard for ZA's lawyers to prove to the ICJ that Israel has attempted to kill all Palestinians in Gaza, given that only a fraction are actually dead, and Israel could do it very easily if they committed to it.

IANAL

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

You should go read what the UN has to say about genocide. You are wrong. The idea that you have to kill most or all of a group to be guilty of genocide is the biggest misconception there is about it. The entire idea is to prevent it from starting and if it does start, stop it before it gets to the proportions of the Holocaust. At any rate the ICJ just today ordered Israel to halt it's offensive; allow official access for UN war crimes investigators; and let in all of the aid it's holding at the borders. Netanyahu immediately refused all three orders.

How much more clear does it need to be?

Edit to add - Just because I can't not. Attempted Murder is the crime they charge for trying to murder someone. So no you don't get away just because you failed. And Israel is a lot closer to succeeding than it is failing.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Yeah, attempted murder is a different charge. That was, again, the point.

Technically is doing a lot of work here, that was the point.

^ You're responding to something other than what I said, so I'll just repost this.

The UN has written a lot about genocide, at various different levels with different levels of authority. Not all of it matches, and the only thing that's definitely included is trying to remove a group one of the 5 ways listed.

At any rate the ICJ just today ordered Israel to halt it’s offensive; allow official access for UN war crimes investigators; and let in all of the aid it’s holding at the borders. Netanyahu immediately refused all three orders.

Yep, although that wasn't a ruling on the charge of genocide itself.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Who cares what the specific charge is? Attempting the crime is still illegal. That's the point. And those 5 ways are the definitions of Genocide.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Lawyers, judges, fact checkers. I'm not the first two, but I like to play at the third.

If you're going by the Geneva convention and not something from the Lemkin school of thought, it's easier to talk about. There's an effort to create conditions of life which will kill Palestinians, and limited success, but calculated to destroy in whole or part is the sticky bit, since the body count is still low compared to the population. I don't know, it's like a drunk that beat someone severely. Was it a poor attempt to kill, or just a successful attempt to maim? The standard of proof required is usually beyond reasonable doubt.

If you were to put using starvation as a weapon or collective punishment to them, there wouldn't be much doubt, but those are (slightly) lesser charges. Just like you could indict the drunk for aggravated assault or similar fairly plausibly.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

How is a man made famine not calculated to destroy them at least in part? This isn't a case of aid just having trouble. Israel refuses to let the vast majority of it into Gaza.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

If they stopped now, no significant part would be destroyed. They won't, but that's a matter of prediction, not fact.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Okay? And that's a bad thing? Again, the goal is to recognize it happening and stop it in time to save people. Not to sit back and declare it after it's done.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

No man, the goal was to comment on the factual veracity of the claim made, as a form of contributing to the discussion. I've been trying to tell you that's all I'm doing.

It's possible, and often desirable, to talk about a specific idea without immediately connecting it to anything else.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

No. You said Biden was right because most of the population isn't dead yet. That is categorically wrong. No part of the definition of Genocide requires waiting until some magic number of people have been killed.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Alright, well, I think I've said what I need to about that. I let the exchange as it stands speak for itself.