sweetpotato

I think you are asking the wrong person, I'm the one saying the Palestinian genocide crosses the line. Although I don't 100% understand the logic behind this. What's the threat to cis women?

Although I'm suspecting the answer someone would give you is that it's because the trans genocide will happen to "us the US citizens" not some Arabs at the other side of the world we don't really care that much about.

I'm not disagreeing on the facts. The democrats truly are the lesser evil and they truly are very evil. They did awful and Trump will do worse. There should be protests and everything.

All that is good. I don't know about you, you seem more open minded than the average user here, but most democrat supporters cannot understand the idea that someone can decide whether to vote and what to vote for with a different logic/philosophy - not with different facts.

Most of the time we judge things with a consequentialist mindset, it's the default for most people. It goes like this: what action out of all the possibilities produces the best results, positive or negative, it doesn't matter as long as one is above the other? I choose that. That's very standard but it has problems and there are a lot of philosophers who have criticised consequentialism/utilitarianism. One criticism is what time in the future are you assessing the consequences? It can be a year, it can be ten years. If Harris had won, would the LGBTQ rights be protected more? Yes, but would the democrats become more unhinged in Gaza, as they basically got away with a genocide? Also yes. Would that further move them to the right(because that's what the oligarchs who fund them want and since they met no resistance), adopting extreme far right policies, like endorsing the wall? So would they in the long term turn out worse and worse? Yes. Someone can argue therefore, that a crushing defeat can maybe help them move to the left even a little bit finally, which in the long term can be more beneficial.

Another criticism is that for a lot of people like I said there is a red line. That's following the deontological framework, where basically the means justify the end, the opposite of consequentialism where the end justifies the means. I'm not saying one framework is better than the other, I believe both have their merits and can be applied in different contexts. In this particular example where the democrats have done so absolutely horrific on all fronts but especially on Palestine, voting for them cannot be justified. They have crossed too many lines to be justified by the end. That end being miniscule differences, basically non existent on anything other than a handful of social issues.

It's ok if you disagree, I'm not going to tell you what to believe, the issue is not recognising the different perspective, which is just not going to lead you anywhere. I'm going to keep explaining this and you(or anyone in your place) will keep repeating the same consequentialist argument. It will not get you anywhere cause it's not a matter of misunderstanding or not realising the consequences, it's a matter of framework and a matter of ideology at the end of the day.

Biden could be reasoned with then? That's what's implied here? 1 year and one month of genocide were not enough to reason with anyone in the democratic party. There was nothing Netanyahu asked for and didn't get, but somehow it wasn't bad enough for you people. There ya go

Because the democrats didn't stand by any values that supposedly differentiated them from the republicans like I explained, but you don't seem to really care. You can put it on non-voters or third party voters all you want, the truth is that Netanyahu got anything he ever wanted and asked for by the US under Biden and Harris and not acknowledging this is part of the problem. Immigrants got the same treatment under them as well, which I also mention and you don't really care.

That's the issue with not having any red line, you will always play by the rules of the far right. And that will make you indistinguishable from them which will alienate the people who want change. They don't see an alternative to a very very dark situation. In good faith, you would very much understand why endorsing the wall, genocide Gaza and standing proudly by it, supporting Israel unwaveringly, not promoting any substantial progressive economic or ecological policies and in general why having an extreme neoliberal agenda would not compel people to vote for you.

It's not on the disappointed voters that you people can't understand what having a red line means. Consequentialism simply does not hold up when the difference are so miniscule and the evil is so big.

I'm really tired of going over this again and again, if you could feel a fraction of the pain the democrats and their oligarchs brought by committing the worst crime against humanity of the 21st century and how the millions of pleas for embargo went ignored this past year and a month, you wouldn't be asking this.

I feel for your very unfortunate situation, but maybe you should've demanded more from your party, instead of putting the blame on people who draw the line at genocide. If the choice is between the number of genocides, maybe we should take a step back and reflect a little because this doesn't stop anywhere. Next time there will be two, three...

Republicans can go as fascist as they want, but if the Democrats are drugged in this race to the right, they will lose. They endorsed the wall, they did nothing about the immigrants and they 100% backed a genocide no questions asked, ever, what difference is an immigrant or Arab supposed to see from this?

No matter how much you accuse the people who didn't vote, the truth of the matter is that nothing will change if you don't demand from your party to stand for some values. For now, they follow Trump moving to the right.

They won't notice a single change, don't worry

A good start would be the books they are currently banning in Florida(and elsewhere) in your up until now "non fascist" country.

Who? Hitler? Are you trolling? He did win the elections in 1932. By a fat mile in fact

A lot of people don't understand this honestly, it's not about intelligence, it's not even about being good or bad.

The reason we are against him is because he has conflicting interests with the people. He works for the oligarchs, for capital, not for humanity, not for the environment, not even for american citizens.

And my 2 cents on this discussion is that critiquing him for being a convicted felon and about the other cases he is accused of is a really disorienting and weak critique as well. He is not going to make our lives miserable because he is convicted, he is going to make our lives miserable because he is a far right, neoliberal fascist with no respect for human life. And on the contrary, many activists have been convicted of crimes, like Assange, but I'd do anything to have them as president. Having been convicted is practically irrelevant and highly dependent on the crime.

So instead the critique should be targeted at politics, not on personal issues... But then again the fact that the critique doesn't always focus on politics is indicative a lot of times of the very small ideological gap between the two parties and how none offers any real alternative.

To think that there's only one issue with the neoliberal democrats is so sad...truly. Don't mistake focusing on Palestine with that being the only issue. Maybe if they didn't like the wall so much or had any progressive economic policies or environmental ones, we'd talk about it. They are serving the oligarchs with a few social progressive policies, that's too little, sorry

All of that just to see the "lesser" evil shift consistently to the right every election cycle. There has to be a red line at some point, a point where there's no significant ideological difference, but no

No choice would help them and thinking the dems didn't give Israel everything it wanted is the problem. But that's what people who don't really care would say, cause if you cared this entire year, you'd realize this and would've noticed the endless pleas for embargo.