I think if one follows the same practices as what is implemented in the UK and France and other democracies, then the issues we speak of with American ballot counting will simply go away.

I would not trust any improvements over the ballot counting methods perfected over 200 years ago. Scantrons, as mentioned, obfuscate witnesses trying to spot issues, and anything else is simply worse.

The modern crop of voting machines are not that much better than the Diebold machines, its hard to tell due to everyone being locked out of investigating them. Most people do not understand that these systems can have the owners throwing the elections without the employees being any wiser. We do not know this is happening, but with the exit polls and other hints going on, I would rate is as probable.

I think my issues with voting machines are influenced by me making similar systems myself. But still, I have no idea why people think they are a good idea. I do not think its a matter of education, or lack of awareness, because I tried for a few years to educate people, and have talked to others who tried too. I think it boils down to some taboo against calling out cheating in the American culture, to be honest. But that is just my idea

Texas is ok. Yes, it has a corrupt bad government steeped in endless corruption. But the big cities are just regular North American cities in both outlook and being cosmopolitan in nature (there are dozens of ethnic groups that have a huge impact on Houston, for example). And most of the rural population is allergic to politics. There is a warming trend that is going to cause mass migrations out of Texas in the next two generations, though.

First, I’m rather far far left. Both mainstream parties have traditionally been against things I hold dear. So things promoted by democrats can be poison to me.

But that is not the point.

When you have a party supporting the fascists, and a party that is less so; and that other party is against enabling, asking, paying token lip service: to democratic principles that every real democracy in the world holds dear, practices that would make the fascists loose.

That makes them a passive enabler.

There is nothing wrong with being a professional looser, and a corrupt mess, if that is what your voters want. But when it’s something that important and there is still no mass awareness of the situation, or even a glimmer of interest to do better.

That does make them equally bad. Much like a child abuse scenario where one parent beats up the children and another parent lets them.

And I think future historians will agree with me

Democrats are out of their minds because they, as a party and a majority of participants: embrace electronic voting; do not demand recounts in very close elections; ignore exit polls that show more people voted for them than recorded in the elections they loose; have no interest in paper ballots etc etc.

If a party is against demanding better democratic practices in states they routinely lose. Sometimes loosing only narrowly.

And everyone needs them to win.

Then what would you call it besides a sort of insanity?

What is the most ethical thing to do here?

the hanging chads in FL

Those were really badly designed ballots. Look at France or the UK or Canada or Virginia etc for how they should be. No self respecting democracy should ever use a half mechanical design that fails like that.

What really made me angry later was that this was used to justify worse ways counting ballots. But my main issue was the shut down recounts. Busy was never properly elected, in my mind, and he made several problems for the USA that still have ramifications to this day.

His dad introduced modern computer voting. He used his contacts to form the first private voting companies we know today. And in my view his son was elected to Texas only because of that.

an expat now. Did you leave?

No, still in Texas. Unfortunately, during the gw era I was not interested in politics much. If I sound like an expat its because I am totally not on board with any of the major political movements

Edit: confused bushes

Most democracies use hand counted paper ballots. It works, and it’s fast enough, no need to improve it.

I don’t understand the American need to tinker with a good system.

That said, there is no way the majority of USA states will switch over to better counting systems. Some areas of the world will never be able to be truly democratic. The Americans have some weird system that works for their upper class, and the lower classes fully believe in it. This will not change in my lifetime

Honestly think things would be better if you were correct. Because that would imply my people are not fools and have some potential hope later.

But having worked as a programmer for a few decades, making systems that are distributed; understanding the technical problems; seen the conferences where voting machines in the USA were discussed; studied the stats over two decades of ballot stuffing; seen the anti intellectualism about ballot counting in both major parties; discussed voting machines while I was active in politics in Texas; and seen the complete rejection of paper ballots by the Democratic Party in most areas of the country especially in states they could potentially win by hand recounts.

I have to conclude my people are fools and are being played like a fiddle; and I don’t see why this should stop.

Just because there will be horrible things happening the next three years, possibly with great loss of life; and just because I myself will probably be imprisoned. Does not mean these trends will stop

If this is about American politics,I am American and have some opinions here .

I think vast majority of Americans rightly sense politics is hopelessly corrupt and will not have anything to do with it.

Most of the people who talk about politics in America, do not understand how democracy works, they vote in a ritual that has nothing to do with fair elections, refusing to bothered about private counting, exit polling or United Nations approved statistics tests for ballot stuffing. This is universal for both parties even though only one cries about being cheated against.

And then later gripe about things, like they are watching sports on the television. They are utterly powerless, without good leaders, they are mislead by all, and are too proud to admit that.

Will there be actual death camps this time? Maybe, not sure.

I think the democrats will start to be allowed to win in enough states next year, have a majority in congress, and then be allowed to have a democratic president.

Most online people will breath a sigh of relief. Say how dangerous things were. Be upset the democrats are not undoing much damage, then be horrified when the GOP comes back in power in the early 2030s. It’s a pretty apparent cycle.

Yet, through this all, the poor will get poorer, the environment will collapse more, and many will be unjustly harmed.

America really needs to get out of this cycle, but cannot until there is a push for paper ballots replacing private election companies.

Until Americans insist on fair elections in the primaries and elections, then the only productive thing American politics will do will be to funnel the wealth out of the lower 99% of the people, and there are no alternatives to this

Edit typos

I think you have an assumption that the public can have a better understanding; and from that will create productive actions.

I think many understand perfectly well what is happening, and they see no way to empower themselves or others. At the same time others cannot not be taught anything.

Eh, it’s been a long journey for me. Years ago I was active in the Democratic Party in Texas, later I was a keyboard warrior who wrote millions of words, none of which did any good.

Now I just want fair elections; again writing words, now in a very small community, that also does no good.

But I’m done with the partisan stuff, and think both sides are equally out of their minds.

Democracies need accurate ballot counting, most states fail this. The primaries in both parties and the general elections have been tampered with for decades in many states. This has totally changed the character and leadership of both parties over the decades.

This is not a falsifiable argument because the only way to prove the above is wrong is to not use the election machines run by private organizations. While at the same time exit polls and stats hint of extreme ballot stuffing by these very companies. It’s not rocket science.

But, most commentators and social media participants in USA politics don’t care or want to know.

The ballot manipulation will allow democrats to win the midterms by a landslide, and most likely have the presidency again in 2028, and people who want paper ballots will be rendered mute again by most. Then next cycle the republicans will win again!

It’s a very long game, with each iteration moving more wealth away from the majority. And the only way to fix it is with paper ballots counted in front of witnesses and unlimited recounts allowed. Even then, it will take a long time to fix

My great granny was born in the 1800’s, she would have thought this very funny

These discussions always assume the elections are fair, which in many states is not true.

Perhaps instead of bickering about unimportant stuff ( at least to me they are not important), everyone griping should at least check to make sure their local elections at least meet United Nations specifications? Maybe they do, but depending where you are at, probably not.

I will never ever understand political discussions done by the majority of Americans.