this post was submitted on 23 Feb 2024
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People on /r/medicine were saying in any other situation this would count as unethical human experimentation. But since idiots are calling the shots, Florida will be a great model of a post-vaccination society.
What "experimentation" is being done here? We KNOW what's likely to happen - there is no real knowledge to be gained from this?
The "experimentation" would most likely be where the line is that anti-vaccers decide they were incorrect and get their kids vaccinated. Or how long the majority of the population living there puts up with these dangerous health decisions. At this point, it is a popular enough opinion on the far right, that any sort of mandate govt action right now would only escalate the situation.
I suppose you are talking about the FAAFO principle (since its meaning is crucial, I will spell it out to make certain we are all on the same page: Fuck Around And Find Out) - like a child sticking a fork into a live socket to "see what happens". There are no "controls", no observations are "recorded" for the future, there is no careful "design" of the factors involved, and second most importantly, no bothering to look up if the answer was somehow already known in the first place, that could have avoided the need to do the experiment altogether.
But I was arguing that the CRUCIAL factor of PRIME importance is likewise missing: the willingness to learn from whatever outcome may derive from the actions. If a child sticks a fork into a socket, but b/c it's low amperage somehow just laughs it off then sticks a fork into the socket again, then just laughs it off then sticks a fork into the socket again, then just laughs it off then sticks a fork into the socket again, then just laughs it off then sticks a fork into the socket again, then just laughs it off then sticks a fork into the socket AGAIN, etc. -> those are not "experiments", it is just plain dumb stupidity. No "learning" takes place, hence it was never an "experiment", just playing.
In contrast, when the USA started it up again after a long hiatus, democracy itself was our "experiment". It looks like it is about to fail, being too susceptible to internal squabbling + coercion from outside forces:-(.
But e.g. when Trump was impeached, the first time, and then when he was impeached, the second time, it was not an "experiment" to "see if he could be impeached" (very much unlike Biden's ongoing impeachment procedures), it was just what needed to be done.
TLDR: these people are not "experimenting" with anything, they are just Fucking Around, having not yet reached the Find Out stage (and never will, even long after the evidence becomes plainly and clearly obvious to anyone at all who is receptive to "evidence").
You are right that the antivaxxers are just fucking around and finding out, but for scientists learning about how such people react to finding out will be really interesting when the disease inevitably sweeps through Florida schools. Also it'll be a good model for the loss of herd immunity.
I'm not opitimistic that Floridians will change, but what I'm really curious about is if their government will decide to do anything when the worst happens. It reminds me about how people were big into crypto and NFTs and stuff because they are unregulated, only to slowly learn that we have regulations for a reason. How many children (who would likely become their own constituents) are Florida republicans willing to sacrifice to earn some political points with crazy people?
Except Florida will fudge the numbers, and nobody will even know anything beyond "excess deaths", unless they take to hiding even those. Also, I still think "experiment" bespeaks of some intentionality, while simply being watchful and mindful of one's surroundings does not raise to that high bar. But you are correct: mindful people can learn from just about anything ("the sun has risen today, again, mark that on the recordings please, that is one more day in which that observation has occurred").
Anyway, I am giving you a hard time, but yeah I see what you mean: they wanted to lose herd immunity, so here goes nothing...
And no, I doubt the Florida government is willing to do much of anything at all, and the federal government is incapable. The Supreme Court is distracted, the upcoming Democrat Presidential candidate won't win Florida no matter what and the Republican Presidential one is likely to just egg the situation on further, and Congress hasn't even passed a budget yet, almost into the third month of calendar year 2024, but remember that this is the sixth month into the fiscal one - that's right, HALF THE YEAR HAS PASSED already without one yet, and they STILL are threatening another showdown when they come back from their weeks-long vacation. And even with such gridlock on all sides, the state government of Florida that is not struggling with a 2-party system at all still cannot hold a candle to the high level of functioning that even our entirely inept and broken (and corrupt) national government ends up having to do (see e.g. the Disney situation, making the state lose out on a BILLION dollars, and that is only one of the various ENORMOUS disasters that is just CURRENTLY going on in that state - the migrant worker crisis is another ofc, and there are far more besides).
This is why I say that this "experiment" of seeing whether and how democracy itself will work as a viable government strategy is currently underway. And so far the grim reaper seems to be winning:-(.
[snorts] Floridans don't want to take care of their kids during the daytime.
People like him shouldn't be doctors.
The corruption and cronyism runs all the way to the top in Florida. DeSantis hired this quack as surgeon general because he was anitvax during covid. DeSantis was also connected to his hiring at UF. A process that was rushed giving Ladapo a 2nd fat cushy job he hardly shows up to.
Thankfully that's not one of the super contagious "wreck your shit" ones....
Wait...
Stupid is what stupid does
America’s dick is diseased.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) — Florida’s controversial surgeon general is drawing criticism for his handling of an elementary school’s measles outbreak, telling parents of unvaccinated children it is their choice whether their students attend class — a contravention of federal guidelines calling for their mandatory exclusion.
Dr. Joseph Ladapo, nationally known for his outspoken skepticism toward the COVID-19 vaccine, sent a letter this week to parents at Manatee Bay Elementary School near Fort Lauderdale after six students contracted the highly contagious and potentially deadly virus.
The letter notes that when a school has a measles outbreak, it is “normally recommended” that unvaccinated students who haven’t previously had the disease be kept home for three weeks “because of the high likelihood” they will be infected.
Dr. Rana Alissa, the academy’s Florida vice president, said Friday that the state should follow the CDC guidelines “for the safety of our kids.” Allowing unvaccinated children to attend during the outbreak not only endangers them, but others who might have compromised immune systems and could later catch it from them, she said.
Jodie Guest, an epidemiologist at Emory University’s Rollins School of Public Health, said the CDC’s guidelines “are based on decades of iterative science” but false information about the measles vaccine’s dangers is spreading.
Florida law requires that students be vaccinated for measles and several other contagious diseases, but they can be exempted by their doctor for medical reasons or by their parents if they affirm the shots conflict with the family’s “religious tenets and practices.” Officials are not allowed to seek specific information about those beliefs.
The original article contains 895 words, the summary contains 263 words. Saved 71%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
I used to live in Volusia County, where a kid died from meningitis recently. The city of Oak Hill had the audacity to call the school "Burns Science and Technology" Charter School.
The town that it's in had a history of being populated by people who were hiding out from the cops, most of them for drug charges and about 10 years ago, their entire police force was fired because of meth use. The county is now in charge there.
This is a town that is in the process of being gentrified, but it is still very much full of ill-informed rednecks that are hostile to any kind of governance.
The fact that a kid died because of the ignorance of the State of Florida is an absolute tragedy, full stop.
And this city is also responsible because they know that vaccines are necessary to prevent this kind of thing, and they chose to ignore both common sense and logic.
Ron DeSantis only set the precedent for Florida to be able to let this happen. The kid's parents are to blame, along with the city of Oak Hill and Volusia County. Shame on the lot of them.