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[–] 15 points 5 hours ago

Yes, but have you considered that using renewables means you're gay? Checkmate liberals.

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  • [–] 10 points 5 hours ago

    Probably true in every market that is not the US, with extreme tariffs and EOs banning solar technology.

    This is true when comparing to peaker gas/coal plants which are less efficient than more expensive Combine Cycle plants, though both can still run 24/7. The myth of baseload as a requirement ignores that "outside of heating or extreme summer night heat" night demand is half of day/evening demand.

    Batteries are now extremely cheap as well, and certainly the combo compared to Combined Cycle is cheaper for better baseload coverage because combined cycle/baseload must overprovide daily needs by meeting peak demand, while solar+batteries can better cover full day needs.

    The absolute clincher though is price certainty for 30 years. Free from extortion or geopolitical oppression/chaos of fuel supply chains. Global warming has direct costs to property values, insurance costs, and food scarcity. US policy has moved to create global fuel scarcity for increased dependence on US, as well.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 hours ago (1 child)

    We could use the excess power to bank carbon, then if we need more power we can burn that same carbon.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 hours ago (2 children)

    Seems super complicated when you could just pump water up a hill, then open a dam when we need more power.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 hours ago (1 child)

    Pumped hydroelectric storage is really hard to do at scale, because gravitational potential energy requires a gargantuan amount of mass raised a very tall height.

    A containerized battery storage system can fit up to 5 MWh of storage in a single 40-ft shipping container. 5MWh is 18 gigajoules, or 18,000,000,000 joules.

    Raising 1 kg (or 1 liter of water) by 1 meter stores 9.8 joules of gravitational potential energy. So you need to scale this upwards and find 1.8 billion to fit into mass or height in order to match the storage of one measly shipping container battery system. So basically any gravity storage system needs very favorable geography, and can't really scale the way that battery storage systems can.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 hours ago (1 child)

    Right, but I was comparing pumped hydro electric to carbon capture for fuel...

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  • [–] 3 points 3 hours ago

    I'm still hopeful for synthetic hydrocarbon production from power-to-liquid Fischer-Tropsch processes, especially the ones that convert captured CO2 and H2 into kerosene for jet fuel. That same 5 MWh/18 gigajoules of energy I was discussing in my earlier comment can be stored in about 390 kg of synthetic kerosene, at 46.4 MJ/kg.

    There's no doubt that it will require a lot of technological and engineering advancement for carbon capture + hydrolysis + the whole PtL process to approach the round trip energy efficiency of charging a lithium ion battery (90%) or pumped hydro (75%), but if we do intentionally overbuild solar and run the chemical plants at near-negative energy prices based on time of day, it could lead to a more broadly sustainable global supply chain for decarbonizing existing fossil fuel systems (like airplane jet engines).

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  • [–] 9 points 9 hours ago (2 children)

    BuT wHaTaBoUt WhEn ItS cLoUdY!!

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    [–] 11 points 10 hours ago

    Get ready for "Economic rationalists" having a meltdown in 5.. 4.. 3...

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  • [–] 41 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

    Yeah but you have to pay for the sunshine every year that you use to power the panels. And you have to build pipelines to transport that sunshine from the faraway places where it's developed, and sometimes you have to liquefy it a load it onto gigantic tanker ships and carry it overseas, and there's always a risk of it exploding and...oh, wait. I'm thinking of the gas. Never mind.

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  • [–] 52 points 14 hours ago (3 children)

    But what happens after that up front cost?? With the current price of a barrel of sun, can we really afford to limit fossil fuels?

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  • [–] 4 points 4 hours ago (1 child)

    I bought a 1 kg rest mass barrel of sunshine, and... boy howdy, for the price I might as well have purchased 1.8 times 10^15 joules from the energy grid.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 hours ago (1 child)

    1kg rest mass of sunlight in a barrel is objectively horrifying lol. Napkin math says thats ~9e19J. For reference, Tsar Bomba, the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated on earth, produced ~2.1e17J. You've got a barrel containing ~440 Tsar bomba detonations

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  • [–] 2 points 2 hours ago

    I'm glad it doesn't exist. That committee trying to design warning signs for permanent nuclear waste storage would have a field day. "The inner lining is only 99.99999999999999999999999999% reflective while it's in this certain temperature range. Do not inhale or exhale forcefully in the vicinity." is a non-starter.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 hours ago (1 child)

    You don't measure sun in barrels. It comes in bars.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 hours ago (1 child)
  • [–] 19 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

    The propagandized will continue parroting their fossil fuel talking points and will continue to vote for the politicians that collect fossil fuel money.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 hours ago (1 child)

    They already moved on to different tactics like restricting the ability to connect solar to the grid or simply burying all applications in red tape for years.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 hours ago (1 child)

    Idk, it's working pretty great for me.

    My experience: https://lemmy.world/post/32326227

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  • [–] 1 point 6 hours ago*

    But you are not scalable.

    The companies that in my country have already applied for grid connections of more solar and battery capacity than would be needed in the next few years yet waiting and waiting and at some point just giving up would be.

    Oh, and now law changes will also kill all future plans as no one will build any more solar with their own money (or get loans from banks) after the decision if they can actually feed in their produced electricity is shifted to the control of grid providers all-well connected or subsidiaries with fossil-fuel focused energy companies.

    Economic viability means shit if it gets fought actively on the government level.

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  • [–] 14 points 14 hours ago (4 children)

    Why do you say it like it's an eternal inevitability? Propagandists spend so much time and money on propaganda because it has to be maintained at a certain pressure to effectively change someone's behavior. The solution to the propaganda problem, then, is to combat propaganda, not wring our hands in despair. We've been busting up propaganda rings since the dawn of the written word, it can be done. Just needs people to do it.

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  • [+] -17 points 6 hours ago (2 children)

    What about the absurd amount of land it takes?

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  • [–] 10 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 child)

    Putting solar panels on land used for biofuels would produce enough electricity for all cars and trucks to go electric:

    How much energy can be produced on global land used for liquid biofuels: 32000 TWh for PV vs 1400 TWh biofuels for transport:

    Remember that you can still use the land for a more useful agricultural crop with higher¹ or similar² yield³ with agrivoltaics

    You can also put panels over parking lots. USA alone has more parking lot land area than some countries:

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  • [–] 3 points 4 hours ago (1 child)

    Biofuels: the least efficient form of solar power one could possibly invent.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 hours ago (1 child)

    It's fine if you have ample fields and a low population with an excess of food.

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  • [–] 1 point 27 minutes ago

    It's mainly there as a form of farm subsidy that bypasses restrictions thrown up by long-existing trade agreements. Canada provides no farm subsidies besides underwriting crop and moisture insurance premiums to an extent, but the US has a long history of flouting these restrictions.

    As usual. Coincidentally it provides money for equipment manufacturers and inputs providers like Deere and Cargill. But I'm sure that's just a happy coincidence of providing "food security".

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  • [–] 6 points 5 hours ago

    can be leased, and at end of lease, land is free for any use. ie. it is not polluted. Fossil plants need exclusion zones for air pollution and noise, and still depress neighbour property values.

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  • [+] -13 points 9 hours ago (3 children)

    If you have the space. Solar needs a lot more space for the same power output.

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  • [–] 15 points 9 hours ago (1 child)

    Sticking coal power generation on your roof, are ye?

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  • [+] -6 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

    From a power-generated-per-area perspective, PV is about 500x less dense than a modern gas-fired combined cycle.

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  • [–] 12 points 8 hours ago (1 child)

    Why does that matter? Solar can go where coal can't.

    Put PV above a parking lot, you're not using that land for anything else useful anyway.

    Lotta places it can go. Doesn't matter if it takes up more space.

    Coal and gas plants can only go in specific spots. Need a water supply, needs logistics, needs a clear zone to vent. So it needs more space than a trivial accounting would indicate.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 hours ago (1 child)

    Solar can go in more diverse locations, absolutely. Especially advantageous because solar can be installed right on top of the buildings that need electricity. Lowers dependence on already-overloaded transmission lines.

    Just from a utility perspective, it’s a lot simpler, easier to buy a plot of industrial zoned land, and stick a combined cycle on it. This is enough to power an entire medium city, 24/7.

    Compared to logistically working with a massive number of private property owners to install solar on their property. And the result of all that work is enough to power the same city from 7 in the morning to 7 at night.

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  • [–] 1 point 41 minutes ago*

    From a utility perspective, you may be right. Given the existence of an already-extant fossil fuel distribution infrastructure, I could see it being simpler.

    But that said, the "amount of space used" isn't a great metric to compare the two, since the space used by solar is very different and can overlap with space used for other things.

    Getting away from utilities, solar is something that individual people can install on their properties to electrify their own little baby power grid, feeding back to the wider grid or not. This will effect the demand curve in the aggregate, leaving utilities to cover the difference somehow. With load dropping to zero or near-zero during sunlight hours, and increasing in the off-peak and winter hours, they have to consider options to balance the grid that aren't appropriate for fossil fuel plants.

    The niche that gas peaker plants fill is rapidly going away as battery technology improves. I think the calculus, in ten or so years, is going to be that it'll be "a lot simpler, easier to buy a plot of industrial zoned land, and stick a" battery farm on it to harvest surplus power during the daylight/windy hours and discharge it at other times.

    I expect that demand for gas is going to drop precipitously in that situation, meaning that the whole fossil fuel distribution network may struggle, and prices will go up, further motivating distributed generation. And utilities are going to want to prepare for that earlier rather than later.

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