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What level of cat fighting is "normal"? (thelemmy.club)

submitted 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) by daannii@lemmy.world to c/cat@lemmy.world

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I got a second cat back in April and it's been drama drama drama.

I followed suggestions online.

Kept them separated.

Slowly introduced them.

Bought pheromone calming diffusers.

Both are neutered males. My old cat is 11. The new one is probably 2yrs or so.

I've tried to do what I can but ultimately, they don't like each other and I don't think they ever will.

Here it is 4 months later and at least once a day, the newer cat Noir attacks my old cat Paxton.

Usually tries to sneak up on him when he's sleeping and put the smack down on him.

My old cat also has poor vision and is , well old and a little overweight so it's not a fair fight. Almost always I see Paxton roll over on to his back with his legs out.

I don't know if this posture means something other than defensive. Submission?

I've tried using a water squirt bottle to deter Noir. And it will definitely chase him off, it doesn't seem to stop him from making these attempts.

Every now and then the older cat initiates the attack.

The attacks are usually short but that's because I am always there with the squirt bottle to break it up.

It's honestly incredibly exhausting. I work from home and it feels like all day supervision.

They also definitely try to antagonize each other multiple times a day. Blocking each others path. Following each other around. Stalking , hissing.

Should I just let them duke it out?

Should I keep intervening with the squirt bottle ?

Will two cats who don't like each other ever learn to just give each other space ?

Also I swear they both be farting a lot when they fighting. Is that a thing ?

What are some of your experiences with two cats who hate each other ?

Please tell me the drama will chill out.

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[-] pjwestin@lemmy.world 3 points 2 hours ago

So, first, drop the squirt bottle. It'll break up the fights in the moment, but negative reinforcement won't change the cats behavior long term; it will just make him see you as a threat.

Second, how many litter boxes do you have? Litter boxes are an important part of staking out their territory, and having to share one litter box can make them think they're encroaching on each other's territory. Experts recommend one more litter box than cats in the house, but one litter box for each, in different parts of house, should be the minimum.

Next, how much are you playing with the younger cat? If he's stalking and instigating most the fights, he might just have play aggression that he's trying to get out on the older cat, who might not have the patience for it. Try playing with the younger guy until he gets tired, at least once a day.

Finally, look around your house and try to eliminate the areas where the older guy might get trapped. Give him escape routes, make sure he has a shelf or a piece of furniture he can not only jump to, but make an escape from. If there isn't enough vertical space, the younger guy is just going to run him down until he gets him cornered.

[-] daannii@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago

I have 3 litter boxes. They each have their own that the other can't access (behind a door that they paw at and I let them enter and exit) and then one in a shared area.

I have a mostly open floor plan so the only areas they can block each other in is really just one door in the house. But there isn't much I can do about that one.

They also both like to look out the front door which has a window front. Other animals come up so they like watching them.

So my desk also has a window that faces my porch. I generally don't let the cats on my desk but I recently gave in and just cleared out a spot for a cat so now they can both watch the porch without fighting over the front door.

I don't really want a cat on the desk but it's a compromise I'll make for now. Plus the young cat likes to sleep on the desk so it does make it easy to keep an eye on where he is.

I def try to make sure the younger cat is entertained as much as I can.

I have a lot of toys including electronic ones. He does like them and likes playing with the wand with me. He's also able to play by himself with some toys. He occasionally plays on the cat tree.

I got a wheel too but not been able to get either cat to use it. Treats nor toys nor laser pointer will incentive them to use the wheel.

I definitely feel like young one sometimes picks on my older cat out of boredom.

But I can't supervise/entertain him every moment he's awake.

[-] pjwestin@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Sounds like you're killing it on the litter boxes. So, does this open floor plan allow for a cat to traverse the space without touching the ground? Having vertical pathways where your cats can make an exit without getting blocked on the ground is important for side-stepping conflict. I have a very patient cat and a surprisingly gentle toddler, and they get along very well, but he's often too excitable and loud for her. When he's in the dining room, blocking her path and getting rambunctious, she can avoid him by jumping on the dining room table, then to an island bar counter, then down to the kitchen counter and from there exit into one of the bedrooms. Similarly, in the living room, she makes use of the back of our L shaped couch to reach the two exits if she doesn't feel like engaging with the toddler playing on the floor. Some cat shelving, or even just some strategically placed furniture, can give them an exit route (doorways are tough, but maybe a small end table they can jump up on or something? Difficult to say without walking through your house).

It sounds like you've got a lot of enrichment for the younger guy. The only thing I could possibly suggest would be adding more structure. You could try playing until he gets exhausted in the morning, then do his morning feeding, which would probably get him to burn some energy and do a big morning nap. Then do the same thing at night to get him to calm down for bed. For all I know you're already doing this, but it's all I can think to suggest. It definitely sounds like the younger guy is instigating out of boredom and the older guy is just is not having it.

[-] kandoh@reddthat.com 6 points 3 hours ago

They need shared trauma. Give them a bath together and get a roomba

[-] daannii@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago

You know that logic is sound. 😅

[-] Manjushri@piefed.social 4 points 6 hours ago

As others have said, cat fights are noisy. When your two cats fight, what does it sound like? Is it generally silent with some huffing and thuds as bodies hit the floor? If so, that is most likely just play fighting. If there is hissing and growling, then someone is pissed. If there is screaming and yowling, then you're staring down the barrel of a vet bill.

Which situation you are in determines how to respond. If it's quiet, let them play. Keep the squirt bottle handy and only use it if tempers start to rise and someone growls or hisses. As someone else mentioned in this thread, you want their interactions to be positive. Don't squirt unless someone is getting pissed off.

If they are growling and hissing at the start, then you need to separate them again and start over. As the goal is to make them like each other, try to put them where they can smell and interact. Something like a large dog crate might work as long as they are not both starting fights. The aggressor cannot start fights unless the second cat comes within reach. This allows them to see and maybe sniff each other while minimizing the chance one will hurt the other.

While separated, or when loose but being chill and not fighting, give a little treat to each. Make sure it is something really tasty that they both like. Give first to the older cat, and then to the new cat. You don't want your old cat thinking the new cat is getting better treatment. If they are not physically separated, take care not to let them get in a fight over the treat. For example, pick up your older cat and give them a treat on a counter or something. Then set them down, pick up the other cat and repeat. Do it this way until you are sure the treat won't start a fight.

When you give the treats, make sure that they can both see the other get the treat. Also, nobody ever gets a treat unless everyone gets one. That way, if you're consistent and maybe a bit lucky, they will start to associate the presence of the other cat with the treats and not with getting in fights. Do not give any treats to anyone if there was a fight of some sort in the recent past. You don't want to risk them associating treats with fighting.

Good luck!

[-] daannii@lemmy.world 3 points 5 hours ago

Yeah it's real fighting. Yowling. Hissing. Growls.

Not playing.

I try to give them each a lot of individual attention. I've tried to get them to play with a wand toy at the same time.

Ive tried using treats to get them to play near each other.

At night I keep them separated since I can't supervise them or if I have to leave the house.

[-] iamthetot@piefed.ca 3 points 6 hours ago

When they fight, are they noisy? Like yowling, hissing, screeching, etc? Or do they tussle and rumble, but make no noises?

The former is bad; that's real fighting. The latter is play.

Because you do mention stalking and hissing in your post, I am concerned it's the former. Unfortunately, although cats are social creatures, that doesn't mean they all get along. Just like people, cats have personalities and sometimes they clash. They may ultimately be incompatible.

[-] daannii@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago

Yeah it's real fighting. Not just a casual slap.

Definitely not playing.

[-] mammata@feddit.it 18 points 18 hours ago

You need a positive association between the cats. If you spray them when interacting, that's only going to make it worse.

A few tips that worked for me, introducing a younger male cat to an older female cat:

if they fight immediately when they see each other, separate again and restart the slow introduction with feeding
try playing with the younger cat, using a toy rod with some exciting feathers, and do it long enough so they spend all their energy. Do it at least once a day. Do so with the older cat, too.
if you see them fight too hard, clap your hands and make some noise to separate them. Use a physical barrier (like a pillow) to separate them and block their sight.

Cats also like to play fight, especially males, so when they fight, check if they are trying to hurt each other, or if they are playing. But first they need to be comfortable in the same room together.

[-] daannii@lemmy.world 3 points 4 hours ago

I have definitely used boxes to try to block their line of sight.

Also if I see one blocking a path I move them . Like hanging out near the hallway entrance where the two litter box accesses are.

I also move food around during the day where there are two eating areas far from each other. And at night the cats are separated so it's less of an issue then.

Yeah I make sure each cat gets multiple one on one time with me and play time.

They have certainly gotten better over these 4 months.

It took probably 2 months before they could be left out together most of the day.

But it feels like I've hit a plateau. Doesn't feel like any more progress is being made.

It honestly feels like I'm babysitting toddlers all day.

I hear a smarl and a growl and have to get up from my desk and move a cat or chase one away or occasionally put one in the backroom for a while. On and off all day, every day.

The only time it's peaceful is when they are both sleeping.

[-] outlawcarl@fedinsfw.app 4 points 14 hours ago

My cats love to play fight but they get carried away.... rule of thumb if there slient when fighting there having fun.. but like mine if they do make whing noises but both keep coming back for more they are just sore losers.

For my youngest cat introduced after the other two had been in the house for 6 years it took maybe a year for them to not hiss and move away from her, but even now while they do the cute noise to noise thing with her they rarly want to be in the same room as her.

Ive had to interfer in a real fight with a stray, you will hear hissing and a level of volume you did not think your cat was capable off if its a real real fight.

[-] daannii@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago

Yeah these two get very loud. That's how I always know I have to get up and grab the squirt bottle.

They growl and hiss a lot all day.

Honestly it's usually the older cat making the noises. Probably telling younger cat to back off.

I've wondered if young cat wants to play and isn't getting the signal from old cat to back off, but when I pick him up to lock him in the backroom (which I do after a fight) he often growls and hisses too.

So they are both in fight mode.

[-] regdog@lemmy.world 8 points 18 hours ago

You should mentally prepare yourself that not all cats go well together. It seems like those two cats will not become friends any time soon, and the situation will probably become worse over time.

[-] daannii@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago

Well it doesn't seem to be getting worse. But it's not much better than it was 2 months ago.

[-] brave_lemmywinks@lemmy.world 3 points 18 hours ago

I have a somewhat similar situation and have thought of getting one of those collars that vibrate with a remote so I can activate it the moment one starts fighting.

[-] daannii@lemmy.world 5 points 18 hours ago

Yeah that has crossed my mind too. A proximity vibration would be great. I haven't seen anything where you get two collars that vibrate when they get too close.

Someone should make one of those.

[-] rollin@piefed.social 5 points 14 hours ago

You could try getting collars with just a simple bell on. These make enough noise to prevent one cat sneaking up on the other so at least the younger cat won't be pouncing on Paxton. It might help defuse the situation.

[-] daannii@lemmy.world 1 points 5 hours ago

Yeah that might be realistic.
At least to wear during the day time.

I'm a light sleeper and don't want to hear the bells all night.

I keep the cats separated at night so that could work. Not a bad idea and inexpensive/easy to try.

[-] EastofEdson@piefed.ca 2 points 19 hours ago

Keep their nails short. You can also get nail caps that glue on. Cats nails shed their outer layer so the caps will come off on their own. This will help prevent injury when they do fight.

We have an older territorial cat that stalks the younger cat we brought home a year ago. The older cat is a chonk and always gets his ass kicked but keeps coming back.

We have a litter box and water in the basement so the older cat sleeps down there some nights.

For the most part they are both in gen pop and it is slowly getting better.

[-] daannii@lemmy.world 3 points 19 hours ago

I've been keeping claws trimmed. I've used the caps in the past and there are pros and cons but I went ahead and bought some and might have to use them again.

I figured if young cat realizes he's handicapped with the claw caps, maybe he won't be so bold to initiate the fights. But who knows.