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[–] 101 points 4 months ago (11 children)

It's 9 if you actually understand PEMDAS

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  • [–] 57 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    I’m guessing confusion is coming from those taking PEMDAS literally as that order? Rather than PE(M|D)(A|S), like it’s supposed to be?

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  • [–] 17 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    It's also because writing multiplication without a symbol creates a tightly bound visual unit that is typically evaluated before other things. If you see an exercise like, "what is 4x²/2x" most people answer "2x" not "2x³". But this convention is rarely taught explicitly, so it's ripe for engagement bait.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago

    tightly bound visual unit

    I think you nailed it on the head. The expression isn't technically ambiguous, there's exactly one solution, and neither is the notation incorrect, just unconventional. In this case though, forgoing convention makes the expression typographically misleading. Hence a reason why we have these conventions for writing out expressions in the first place: to visually reinforce the order of operations thereby making expressions as easy to read as possible. So it's not written wrong per se, just unnecessarily confusingly.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago

    I was taught BEDMAS in school, so slightly different order. I was also taught that DM and AS are not specifically in that order, but rather left to right of the equation, in the same lesson. I’m not sure why some schools aren’t doing it that way.

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  • [+] 58 points 4 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (6 children)
  • [–] 36 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    This is the correct answer and it drives me crazy how often this comes up.

    As another user commented, division and subtraction are just syntactic flavor for multiplication and addition, respectively. Division is a specific type of multiplication. Subtraction is a specific type of addition.

    And so there is a reason mathematicians do not use the division symbol (➗): it is ambiguous as to which of the following terms are in the divisor and which are part of the next non-divisor term.

    In other words, the equation as written is a lossy representation of whatever actual equation is being described.

    tl;dr: the equation as written provides insufficient information to determine the correct order of operations. It is ambiguous notation and should not be used.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago

    Yup, I found an old comment of mine but unfortunately that post was deleted. The numbers are different but its the same riddle

    I think the confusion is in the way it’s displayed. The notation in the comic is ambiguous, where the division is shown as a symbol, while the multiplication is implied with the brackets, so some people see the question as 8/(2*(2+2))=1, while others see it as 8/2*(2+2).

    For the later, my understanding is that multiplication and division actually have equal priority and are solved left to right (rather than an explicit order as PEDMAS and BEDMAS seem to suggest). So the second interpretation would give 8/2*(2+2)=8/2*(4)=4*4=16

    The reason this isn’t a problem more often is because

    • math questions should be written unambiguously, using symbols everywhere and fraction bars
    • in real life problems, there is a certain order in which you manipulate the numbers, and we can use correct notation (with an excessive number of brackets if needed) to keep it crystal clear
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  • [–] 48 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    The P in PEMDAS just means resolve what's inside the parentheses first. After that, it's just simple multiplication with adjacent terms, and multiplication and division happen together left to right.

    6÷2(1+2)

    6÷2(3)

    3(3)

    9

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    This is actually a generational thing. Millennials were taught “PEMDAS”:

    1. Parenthesis
    2. Exponent
    3. Multiplication
    4. Division
    5. Addition
    6. Subtraction

    But younger generations have been taught “BEDMAS” instead:

    1. Brackets
    2. Exponent
    3. Division
    4. Multiplication
    5. Addition
    6. Subtraction

    Notably, Division and Multiplication are swapped on PEMDAS and BEDMAS, to make this “both happen at the same time” more straightforward. But that only applies if the entire operation can happen at the same time.

    For instance, let’s say 6/2(3) compared to 6÷2(3). At first glance, they both appear to be the same operation. But in the former, the 6 dividend would be over the entire 2(3) divisor. Which means you would need to simplify the divisor (by resolving the multiplication of 2•3) before you divide. So the former would simplify to 6/6=1, while the latter would divide first and become 3(3)=9.

    Technically, if you wanted to be completely clear, you would write it using multiple parenthesis as needed. For instance, you would write it as either:
    (6÷2)(3)=9 or 6÷(2(3))=1 to avoid the ambiguity. Then it wouldn’t matter if you’re using PEMDAS or BEDMAS.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    But in the former, the 6 dividend would be over the entire 2(3) divisor.

    I have never heard of or seen an example of anyone using / and ÷ in different ways. If you want multiple terms in your divisor, either write it as a large fraction with all relevant terms in the dividend or divisor, or use parentheses. This just seems like sloppy notation to me.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    Usually, no sign before the bracket means juxtaposition. Scientific calculators do account for it (not all, tho), while regular ones may not.

    So 2(1+2) is really (2+4)

    Compare 2/2x and 2/2×X where x is (1+2)

    The first is 2/(2+4)=1/3, the second is (2/2)×(1+2)=3

    Basically, either 1 or 9 can be considered correct. And yes, it's ambiguous.

    Also, there's no real rule about solving left to right due to associative and commutative properties: 1×2×3 = 1×(2×3) = (1×2)×3 = 3×1×2 = 2×1×3 = 6

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    [–] 47 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    The ÷ symbol is a bane of mankind

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  • [–] 34 points 4 months ago (19 children)

    Well, Patrick IS an idiot ... so it checks out?

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    [–] 29 points 4 months ago

    We discovered mathematics, the unflinching language of reality itself, and then managed to make it ambiguous.

    If i was an alien id give humanity a big hair-tussle like a dog.

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  • [–] 23 points 4 months ago

    Use unambiguous notation

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  • [–] 23 points 4 months ago

    I was taught not to write like this so we dont have to deal with this shit 😊

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  • [–] 22 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    No mathematician would write an ambiguous equation like that.

    People who argued over these are displaying an incorrect memory of a math education that is simply not a good look.

    Division and multiplication have the same precedence, equations are evaluated left to right, so equation is divide then multiple. Division and subtraction are syntactic sugar for multiplication and addition.

    These are fun little experiments showing how social media makes people more stupider and how proud the ignorant behave amongst themselves.

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    [–] 19 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Uh oh, here we go! Before the Fediverse's favourite mathematical charlatan comes to play, let's lay out a few facts:

    • This is an unusual way of writing down this expression: you would not normally mix in-line division (written with ÷) and multiplication written without a symbol. It's written this way on social media to for engagement bait.
    • Because of this, a perfectly valid reply is to ask "can you put in some brackets to make it clear" :)
    • A strict, standard reading of the order-of-operations as abbreviated by PEMDAS, BODMAS, etc, is to perform multiplication and division in the order that they occur. This would mean the evaluation goes like this:
      1. 6÷2(1+2)
      2. Perform addition inside the brackets: 6÷2(3)
      3. Perform the first multiplication or division: 3(3)
      4. Perform the remaining multiplication: 9
    • Occasionally, PEMDAS is interpreted as indicating that multiplication must be done first because the M occurs before the D. This is not usually how it is taught, but rarely it happens. This would give you 1 but, to be clear, in most places this is wrong. I myself was taught BODMAS and, in fact, do division first in all circumstances.
    • Much more commonly, though, the actual practical order in which mathematicians, teachers and students all evaluate expressions is a little different, in that it evaluates symbol-less multiplication (also known as "juxtaposition" which just means "writing two things next to each other" or, in discussions about this topic in particular, "implicit multiplication") before anything else. This is done because writing two things next to each other creates a tightly-bound visual unit.

    It's rare for this last point to be mentioned explicitly as a violation of the order-of-operations. It usually only becomes relevant well after those conventions are spelled out (which is typically done in late primary school or early high school) after children start learning algebra and how to write algebraic expressions: using letters to represent unknown quantities, omitting the × symbol. Exam boards and textbooks are usually quite careful to avoid writing problems in which this unstated rule actually matters.

    It's important to realise that the order in which we evaluate a mathematical expression is a matter of convention. After establishing how to add, multiply, subtract or divide two numbers, it is a separate question which operations should happen first when more than one is written together. This is why we need to teach students the order of operations - they can't just work it out themselves. Having said that, it certainly makes a lot more sense to do multiplication before addition, and exponentiation before multiplication, because each of these operations is (typically: you can define them in different ways if you're a masochist) defined in terms of the previous one. This means that if you have an expression involving all three, and you first turn all the exponentiation into multiplications, you are left with a simpler expression that means the same thing. This only happens if evaluating exponentiation is the first thing you're supposed to do. However, it would be a mistake to think this means that there is any mathematical necessity about this: what a sequence of squiggles on paper means is entirely up to the people reading and writing the squiggles; as long as they agree, the person reading the squiggles will get the same answer as intended by the person writing them. There's a good, lengthy write-up here

    This means that while what I was taught is "wrong" according to how it is usually taught (including today in the same country), this wrongness is better understood mathematically as "unusual" - something that needs to be worked out by communication and consensus rather than by dictating one right and another wrong.

    You do get some people with very strong opinions about this, which is not always correlated with their actual knowledge. If the aforementioned charlatan turns up, I'll explain...

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    [–] 17 points 4 months ago*

    I was taught to do

    • Brackets
    • Division and multiplication left to right
    • Addition and subtraction left to right

    There should be a fucking ISO for this shit tbh

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago* (7 children)
  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    Only if you forget that multiplication happens left to right and that a(b) is simply a different way to write a×b with no other extra steps or considerations. The P in PEMDAS just means resolve what's INSIDE the parentheses first.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    That only works if everyone agrees with you, which is clearly not true. In academic math, there's a thing called juxtaposition. It mostly exists because math people are lazy, so instead of putting parentheses around statement e.g. 5+(2*x) they'll just write 5+2x.

    This is fine as long as you know the context of that expression. If you take it out of the context and just ask any person what is the right order of operations - it becomes ambiguous. Because some people know PEMDAS. And other people know that PEMDAS is just a simplification for middle school, when real math notation is messy, non-standard and requires a lot of local domain knowledge.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    That's not lazyness. Multiplication is always done before addition. No need for parenthesis for that.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago*

    I picked example without confusion on purpose, because most people will generally avoid patterns similar to what OP posted. But if you want something more ambigious:

    This is clearly 5/(2 * (a+9)). If we write this the form that the OP uses: 5/2(a+9) - it's fucked beyond all recognition.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    It’s ambiguous either this resolves to 6 / (2(1+2)) or (6/2) * (1+2), and therefore both answers must be accepted.

    By convention, the division sign is not to be used in equations. It is not a standard operation.

    It is may be used for representing the operation of division as a symbol, but never as an operator itself.

    Anyone using the division sign is using it entirely for trolling purposes.

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    [–] 8 points 4 months ago

    Oh christ the math memes are leaking from facebook

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (5 children)

    my calculator disagrees.

    and i would too, this is basically
    6÷2(1+2) = 6÷2×(1+2) = 6÷2×3

    while you resolve brackets first, you still go left to right. you would get 1 if you did
    6÷(2×(1+2))

    the issue is the missing multiplication sign between the 2 and the brackets, thats why i always write them even if it is not strictly required

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    [–] 7 points 4 months ago

    6 2 ÷ 1 2 + ×

    Or 6 2 1 2 + × ÷ for Patrick

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  • [+] 7 points 4 months ago*
    [–] 6 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Math should be taught with postix or reverse Polish notation. It removes this ambiguity as the order of operations is left to right.

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    [–] 5 points 4 months ago

    Guys, just use proper notation for devision, it clears up so much confusion.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago

    They taught it to us in Ontario, Canada as BEDMAS where the B is brackets

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