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Ko-Fi Liberapay
Ko-fi Liberapay

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Hey mateys!

I made a post at /c/libertarianism about the abolition of IP. Maybe some of you will find it interesting.

Please answer in the other community so that all the knowledge is in one place and easier to discover.

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[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'm not opposed to intellectual property because there's an argument for providing a limited time monopoly to the creators of works to provide incentive to make works public. Without any such incentive, it's entirely possible that the monetization structures for different works change, for example locking content behind restrictive systems that don't allow for personal use at all.

The key is "limited time". If you can't make your money back in 15 years, then maybe it's time to make a new thing? The idea that someone should own a thing you made after you're dead is stupid -- how exactly will that promote you to create new works? If you're dead, your creating days are over except for creating plant food out of your bones and organs.

I put my money where my mouth is, and the legal page of the graysonian ethic specifically lists that the book is put into the public domain or license after Creative Commons CC0 license after 15 years from the date of first publishing.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Other than liking the nice round number of 20 years, that’s exactly my take. Copyright longevity creates perverse incentives for rights holders, and it locks down the ability of other creators to use common cultural references.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I’d say no more than 10 years for ANYTHING. Copyright, patent, you name it. I would also prohibit any and all software and design patents.

Trademark would last only as long as actively in use.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

These changes alone (without other major reforms) would be particularly catastrophic in sectors that require large investment over a long period of time. For example, pharmaceuticals typically cost billions and take 10-15 years to develop.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Billions typically paid for by government subsidy, id est taxpayers. I'm not sure what the justification is for private IP rights when the capital is socialized.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Copyright is life of the Author +70 years, patent is 20 years from filing.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I agree with you both, although imho 15/20 is a bit too long? The only reason being something can be improved better(?) by multiple entities working on it (competitively) than a single entity. Maybe 10 years? I'm thinking if I have an invention (let's say a new engine), 10 years should be enough for me to earn my share. After that, other companies/individuals can use my base/foundation and build on it. With more people working on that engine and competing with each other, the end product would probably be much better than when I work at it alone.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So if i'm a writer writing a series over a decade, my first book, which only got me a 10k advance, will stop giving me even a pittance in royalties a decade later even as I am adding new books to the series? Most creatives are not rich household names, and your idea would not be a death knell for Disney, but for the small creators already earning poverty wages.

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This only works if you abolish capitalism as well so people don’t need to revenue of IP.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

Now you're talking

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (23 children)

If there was no intellectual property, what would prevent a company like Amazon to simply sell any work every published in their best monopoly marketplace without ever giving a cent to the creators? How would, for instance, the author if a novel make money?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Donations and crowdfunds are the most common suggestions.

Or to come at it from another angle - 38% of the USA's GDP comes from IP, and its primary beneficiaries are wealthy. If we paid towards a UBI instead of copyright holders, then many people would just make these things for free, with total creative freedom. The messages in our art and direction of our technology would radically change.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

That's not far off from what Amazon currently does.

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Abolishing IP simply means the deepest pocket steals the market for everything. If you don't think Amazon can out produce and market your minuscule budget, you're insane.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

They still wouldn't though. Think about it this way:

Amazon paid big bucks for the rights to make a lord of the rings show and did a shit job for the amount of money they spent.

The last season of GoT spent more than every other season and couldn't touch the early seasons in terms of quality.

Money =/= good art

Might as well at least make it so the big spenders can't hold the IP hostage.

FWIW I do actually think IP is a good idea but it should only last like 5 years tops. Maybe longer for industrial patents/inventions. This "Life of the author + X decades" stuff is horseshit.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

FWIW I do actually think IP is a good idea but it should only last like 5 years tops

If I'm not mistaken research has concluded that the optimal IP duration is 14 years. Even if it's triple your duration it would mean that the current IP laws are objectively shit.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

In reality it doesn't work out that way though. What actually happens is that the deepest pockets are the ones who can patent everything under the sun, and who can buy out all the poor copyright holders at bargain prices.

In theory it can work, if there are sufficient regulations on what can be patented, and anti-trust policies. But again, in reality the holders of capital rewrite the laws in their favor because money is liquid and industries are porous.

These sorts of laws favor the wealthy, at least in practice.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Maybe capitalism doesn't work, except for the richest capitalists?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I thought IP existed to encourage the creation of more inventions and books by reducing free riders (like us). Why does it prevent the deepest pockets from stealing the market for everything? What would that look like?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Don't they already do that, I've seen a couple articles about things people sell on Amazon getting copied and sold as Amazon basics and the person going into near bankruptcy trying to prove their IP in court.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm a fan of a copyright term similar to the original US copyright term. Fourteen years at the outset, with an additional seven (versus the 14) upon the payment of a fee scaled based on the revenue generated by a work (to be used to support artistic grants.) After all, if the argument is that copyright is necessary to protect artists' economic interests, it follows that copyright holders wishing to extend should pay back into that system if they want to extend.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Honestly that sounds so much better than what we've currently got, a lifetime + 70 years.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

You can thank Disney and Mickey Mouse for that one.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This hot take brought to you by someone with no intellectual property of their own, I guarantee it.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Most IP owners didn't create what they have, but bought it off someone else. I have little pity for rich people.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Exactly this, most IP revenue comes from companies just either buying it from the original creator or hired people to make the IP that they never even had rights to

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'd say society is better off with no IP related temporary monopoly than the system we have. There are enough instances where creators die penniless and publishers make all the profits to suggest there already is no financial incentive for an inventor to invent. Like Goodyear, they do it more as a hobby or in the interest of society.

Maybe if we had social safety nets so everyone not rich wasn't desperate, we might be able to have a robust innovation sector that was less focused on using law to screw competitors and consumers.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (15 children)
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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Hear me out: what if, instead of wait for systemic change, we go for it and license all our works permissively?

No major copyright issues, attribution given, new developers and artists get to study the works, and use it in many ways, as per the licence.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I license all my output (code, music) under the Unlicense.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

I really wouldn't recommend public domain or similar licenses to anyone since anyone looking to save a quick buck can easily turn a profit without attribution.

However, if it makes you happy, go for it

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That would be a great first step and this is exactly why I have initiated this discussion. It helps me to align my behaviour with what I personally consider to be optimal and then act accordingly. Everything I create to improve my situation I also want to share with the world.

And as a fun fact: without IP there is no need for copyleft or open source licenses because theoretically you can reverse engineer everything. But that doesn't make the open source community obsolete. There will still be a distinction between people who openly share their source and solution and those who try to hide it from everyone.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

Intellectual property is cultural theft.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Yes, but also capitalism must be too abolished for it to work. At best we would just have the current big media corporations technically asset flipping smaller creators, at worst corporations just could use private armies to enforce their copyright.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

No, not abolished, but cut significantly.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

A revocation of intellectual property will most likely require similar forces to the revocation of private capital — societally huge shifts in income distribution, production, infrastructure, and scale. I think those changes are worth making, but doing so would be very, very hard.
I am amenable to making current law much more reasonable, such as requiring a maintenance to keep IP relevant, cutting IP protection down to lifetime of author (not the company), making government funded IP freely or cheaply available to the public, putting abandonware into the commons after 10 years, fully legalizing emulators, etc.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Intellectual property protects smaller innovators from larger companies. Imagine if you developed a novel process for solving a problem much cheaper than current methods. Now imagine if you started making some serious money doing this, and it starts to make some noise. What's to stop Amazon from just copying your process, and making it better/cheaper? They have the money to completely down you out.

Without Intellectual Property upkeep rights, any megacorp will just copy your idea and sell it for less at a broader scale, and cut you out of the market.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Even with IP, there is very little stopping the big actors from developing something similar but debatable distinct, at a larger scale. By the time the lawsuit clears, they've wrecked your profitablity.

In fact, more often you see big companies act as patent trolls, using IP as a bludgeon to threaten smaller players who don't have an army of lawyers. See, DMCA takedowns to suppress speech, patent trolls, and esp trademark nonsense.

Trade secrets fit your example best, but more often than not that's something that relies on worker restrictions rather than traditional "IP"

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