Give me some examples of Chinese workers getting disenfranchised. Also please explain to me how the Chinese State is controlled by capitalists. Don’t just tell me that the Chinese state allowing some capitalist formations in some areas = capitalists control the state, give me some examples of the Chinese state actually capitulating to the interests of capitalists in ways that benefit the capitalist class more than anyone else.
Given the last part especially, it sounds like a classic case of someone who fetishizes what got destroyed (the now defunct USSR), which conveniently no longer exists to keep making mistakes, and criticizes the real and tangible for not being good enough. I am once again linking the excellent essay on this kind of problem in thinking and culture: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Library:Western_Marxism,_the_fetish_for_defeat,_and_Christian_culture
Of course, socialist projects can be criticized, but they are best criticized within the context of their conditions, history, and culture, and that requires understanding how they got where they did and why, not imposing an idealistic view on them from outside.
The west only loves corpses.
Marxism is a science.
The Soviet Union is not a dogmatic blueprint of what is to be done; we learn the lessons from it - good and bad - along with socialism of how it is practised along the ages globally (including Cuba, North Korea, Laos and Vietnam, and attempts at pro-social projects such as Venuzuela, Kerala and Naxalites, and pro-social projects in the Sahel (especially Ibrahim Traore). There are many other historical attempts including Sankara, Cabral, and in Indonesia before the Jakharta Method to name a few.), and then apply it to local material conditions.
We have to consider (1) the USSR fell (2) socialism did not stop at its borders (3) and therefore socialism endured globally including learning from its errors.
One has to understand dialectics, one of the tenets of which is that elements of what is before will be in the synthesis of the new.
If we consider universal healthcare such as the NHS in the UK could be considered a pro-social project under a capitalist country, then in China the "inverse" could be considered where capital is under the power of the proleteriat state.
Like I said Marxism is a science. It is, however, really difficult to do randomised controlled trials for political economies but fortunately we have an almost equivalent in this timeline; India. Compare, what a dictatorship for capital (India) and a dictatorship against capital (China) looks like.
Consider if China is "capitalist" why can't other capitalist countries replicate the speed of progression and development?
How do you explain 800 million people lifted out of poverty? Because if this is not socialism - and you think this is capitalism - then you have to then concede that capitalism is the best system out there. The system that feeds the poor wins.
Assuming one has the intellectual curiousity to want to understand the counter viewpoint from the "enemy's" perspective (for you here it appears to be "Dengism") - ie to be able to make their arguments convincingly - then here is further reading:
(1) Tricontinental Institute: Serve the People - the eradication of extreme poverty
https://thetricontinental.org/studies-1-socialist-construction/
(2) Explaining high external efficacy in authoritarian countries: a comparison of China and Taiwan (a study by liberals doing mental gymnastics when they discover China is more democratic than liberal democracies):
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13510347.2016.1183196
(3) Redsails - Why Marxism
https://redsails.org/why-marxism/
(4) Why the World Needs China by Kyle Ferrana
There are further resources such as critiques on Western Marxism by the likes of Rockhill, Losurdo and Prashad, and lots more articles such as the Why China has Billionaires by Redsails but the above is a good starting point for those lurking and interested.
(Yes this is not a point by point rebuttal debate-bro style, this is an attempt to consider the deeper question on whether China is socialist)
even Hong Kong is being outcapitalisted by the mainland, with Shanghai and even Shenzhen surpassing Hong Kong in terms of commerce and trade,
I don't want to assume the worst, but it really reads like you're thinking that "capitalism is when trading" which is how liberals understand capitalism
'specifically designated economical hubs with combined population nearly 10x larger has higher economy than much smaller area'
"Capitalism is when buy and sell things." Is literally how liberals think. That's like, the first thing a budding leftist realizes is bullshit when they start to learn about socialism. How does someone with this ideal make it as far as Lemmygrad without understanding that? This shit reads like a fed post.
You just reminded me of a terrible experience I had with a liberal trying to convince me that capitalism is when you trade and trading is when you have markets.
He was being unironic.
I sort of feel like we're just treading water at this point with these sorts of posts. Maybe we need a masterpost for easy reference to address the most commonly brought up points.
Only thing I will say here is, increasingly, it feels to me like "Dengism" has become the new "Stalinism". In the sense that there really is no such thing, it is just a meaningless perjorative.
Whatever issues you might have with deng (its mostly foreign policy), he made sure that the PRC was not destroyed in the 90s like most communist parties or states were. Yes even Cuba, Laos and Vietnam had to bend to pressure and do reforms. NK was the only one who didnt and got destroyed by sanctions which led to famine.
Read Socialism with Chinese Characteristics by Roland Boer and stop listening to trots
PDF download so that the notations/citations are clickable, since they offer a lot of good reading material too. Often you can directly copy/paste into a search engine and they'll bring up a full copy from marxists.org or another similar site.
I'm interested in reuploading to prolewiki, you can import the PDF copy to a google doc or etherpad or similar and I can simply copy-paste afterwards onto prolewiki and preserve headings and formatting. If you want.
For ease of importing my workflow is typically pass it through OCR software (such as abbyy), export as formatted html, and then start copying and pasting to prolewiki. then we have to add the infobox and the categories and that's it. I use OCR even for text-layer PDFs because the text layer sucks to copy, OCR makes a readily copiable document.
I just threw the epub version into an html converter real quick, does this work? That way the hyperlinks are preserved.
If not I can try the OCR method or something else
Unfortunately it wants to preserve line breaks and doesn't understand headings correctly :(
Ah okay my bad, I'll try again later today when I get a chance. It'd def be great to have it on the wiki so it's fully readable online
Depending on how the ocr handles it we also need to manually go through the headings to give them the proper tag (level 1 2 3 etc) and if there are in-line references they should ideally be moved to wiki format so they can be clicked but that one is a secondary
Fosho, when I get a minute I'll read up on mediawiki formatting and try again. It's been a few years since I edited a wiki.
Hong Kong is being outcapitalisted by the mainland, with Shanghai and even Shenzhen surpassing Hong Kong in terms of commerce and trade
Might need to read a book or something. Commerce and trade happens in socialism. Vietnam trades with other countries. The former USSR traded with other nations. WTF?
Obligatory: https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
The time you spend questioning "are you really sure it doesn't work this way?" could have been spent asking "how does it actually work?". Who cares about any of this? Chinese citizens have had their material conditions continuously improve for decades with no signs of stopping, quite the opposite, and not at the expense of the rest of the planet. And this is the only thing that ultimately matters in a world where most people can't say that.
i'm not so versed in china, but you're being kinda harsh with it...
Dengism has pushed forth a disastrous capitalist restoration
maybe, but the cpc has made a considerably good work keeping the stability of the socialist project
how can a country be a dotp without its basis of government being soviets they give bourgeois the right to vote and participate in government
i mean, in what other country a businessman is executed for doing treacherous stuff and being a corrupt state contratist? in what other country a big-ass monopoly is fragmented by the state?
Beijing has legally and specifically preserved capitalist governance...points of great pride for Beijing despite this very clearly not being socialist
i mean, those are still china and china has still some chauvinism and nationalism, still a better record than the ex-ussr
the 1918 russian constitution officially denied political power to the bourgeoisie, universal right to vote is inherently bourgeois
pobody's nerfect...even with those issues china has pretty decent records. i mean, what would you prefer? a place with dalai lama as the main religious figurehead and an economical politics like the us?
Which socialist country retained Soviets?
I think many trots like to idealize Soviets, as some heavenly form of proletarian organization. One need to study the USSR experience to understand that Soviets were simply a transitional form of organization and had issues in coordinating the economy in the national level.
Discuss anything related to China.
Community Rules:
0: Taiwan, Xizang (Tibet), Xinjiang, and Hong Kong are all part of China.
1: Don't go off topic.
2: Be Comradely.
3: Don't spread misinformation or bigotry.
讨论中国的地方。
社区规则：
零、台湾、西藏、新疆、和香港都是中国的一部分。
一、不要跑题。
二、友善对待同志。
三、不要传播谣言或偏执思想。