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Just a reminder that a third of the 7th of October's victims were from the military. If that's the criteria, regardless of the scale of the murders, then Israel is a worse terrorist than Hamas (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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From https://aoav.org.uk/2023/an-analysis-of-the-7th-of-october-2023-casualties-in-israel-as-a-result-of-the-hamas-attack
Yes, 66% is awfully high(, and focusing on attacking military bases would have been suicide, i've also heard about the Hannibal directive, and if i stopped speaking in relative numbers i also know that palestinians were/are clearly at a loss in absolute terms under the law of retaliation), but since that's the threshold given to distinguish between a terrorist and a military operation, then Israel is a terrorist nation by its own standards. Not that anyone cares about giving an official definition to distinguish between a terrorist and a soldier/'resistance fighter'.

Some definitions don't even refer to a ratio civilians//military, and would make Israel #2 behind the US :

See also the U.S. definitions, it's not as if we had many laws against terrorists anyway(, domestic or not, they rarely make a distinction, Palestine Action didn't even hurt anyone).
I've also heard that it's the way that the murders are made, as if money mattered and using tanks&planes was more civilized.

I couldn't find an exhaustive data from Iran or Lebanon, but the majority of the victims were civilians :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iran%E2%80%93Israel_war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Israeli_invasion_of_Lebanon

Shameless israeli fuckers, try to justify that they couldn't wait until their target leave the crowd, not that they haven't done worse, they're killing ~100 people every day so it's just one event among others :

https://www.telesurenglish.net/israeli-strike-on-aid-queue-in-deir-al-balah-kills-16-including-10-children

Nothing would surprise me/us anymore, they're not humans :

ramblings

It's so useless to throw accusations, nobody cares if the accusation of terrorism are legitimate or if it's just one more hypocrisy on our never-ending list. I don't know what to do, how can nations just stand there watching ? Couldn't they at least apply economic pressure for the symbol ? It honestly feels as if they have accepted what's ahead, as if they dont believe that Israel could change its mind with enough pressure from them.
If they succeed then in the future they'll still have to get rid of the current extremists in the israeli government and (c)overtly support more humanist elected officials, as well as less psychopathic israeli medias. Israel won't change its path by anything else than brute force, at least Russia acted according to the will of the local population as well as in consequence to western interferences etc., Israel has no other excuses than their greed and their mistaken pretext that "you just can't live with palestinians", something already discussed abundantly.
There's no love, Yunus Emre was/is right, those that don't love can't be religious. You can still kill others while loving them(, less than the ones/causes you're protecting,) and that would lead to different wars than if you're hating them.

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[-] [email protected] 18 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

No. 1/3 killed on that day might have been military but it wasn't the resistance that killed the other 2/3.

There is no evidence that the resistance killed any civilians. Its likely they might have killed some civilians but the did not intentionally kill non-combatants. There are numerous videos and testimony of Resistance fighters being cordial and kind to the captives.

The idf is directly and indirectly responsible for nearly every civilian who was killed. There is testimony from helicopter pilots that they fired on the parking lot of the rave as ravers tried to flee. There is video of israelis firing while calling ravers to come to them in effect using them as human shields. There eye witness testimony of idf firing on homes and vehicles that they knew had civilians inside. In some cases it was actually the perpetrator themself admitting to their crimes. There were over 200 resistance fighters who's bodies were mistaken for civilians because they were burned beyond recognition along side civilians.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The idf is directly and indirectly responsible for nearly every civilian who was killed

I've heard that they killed dozens or even perhaps a hundred at most, but never that they killed nearly everyone of them, unfortunately i guess that there's no way of proving that ?
I don't think that civilians are innocent, i'm from France and already said that during the attacks on France by i.s.i.s. : we're paying for the bombs that are killing their families, and for the salaries of those meddling in their affairs overseas, in order to put in place a regime closer to our interests, instead of choosing to establish a permanent security for everyone, uniting in diversity, etc... Not that civilians constitute a legitimate threat/target to defend against, and even the military personnel should be captured if possible since we should strive to treat others as if 'they were ourselves/'we were one'(, in practice and not only in theory).
Just to say that i've followed a bit of what Max Blumenthal released on this subject but i don't remember him ever going higher than 100 civilians(, no ?), and anyway, compared to the number of civilians that Israel killed prior to the 7th of October it'd be hypocritical on my part to throw an accusation, i just thought that this ratio was somehow linked to the most commonly accepted definition of terrorism, but quickly (re)confirmed that they don't even pretend to give a definition to this term, or when they do it's obviously applicable to ourselves, pfff...

Anyway, i doubt that anyone can prove that assertion, even if you cited much more than one proof of israelis responsible for some of these deaths, but if anyone could i'd be glad to stand corrected.

There were over 200 resistance fighters who’s bodies were mistaken for civilians because they were burned beyond recognition along side civilians.

Yes, that's true, thank you for the reminder ! It's obviously suspicious that out of the 1195 bodies on which Israel has claimed to have conducted DNA tests, they didn't name a single Hamas member, like they're not even trying to hide that they included them, i.d.k., i found that article from 2 months ago so apparently they didn't identify everyone : https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2392615/grim-350-bags-of-human-remains-from-october-7-still-await-identification.html

The table that i cited above only counted 732 identified victims out of the 1195, but even if my point was more around searching what qualifies someone as terrorist, and would legitimate such or such actor/action, i thank you for your informations.

[-] [email protected] 13 points 1 day ago

There's a bunch of really well researched articles here. these 2 are probably a good place to start.

https://electronicintifada.net/content/released-captive-tells-how-israeli-fire-killed-kibbutz-resident/45121 https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/new-evidence-emerges-israel-killing-its-own-civilians

None of the confirmed actions of the Resistance mach up with "frenzy of blood lust" narrative the israelis and western msm spin. Their plan was to break out, kill soldiers, take hostages, trade them for prisoners. Mass murder does nothing to help that plan. They kept their plan secret for years while preparing under the nose of a the most advanced surveillance state in history. The resistance had iron clad discipline.

There is a body of evidence showing that the idf had not just the intention to kill israelis rather than have them taken hostage but that it did so on several occasions and we only found out about the times people survived the idf's attacks.

Everything we have seen since october 7th shows that the idf is psychotic, blood thirsty, and cares nothing for the lives of israelis or Palestinians. Everything we have seen from the resistance shows that they were more than fair to the captives, that they fight in areas without civilians, and that they are careful to not plan suicidal attacks.

We can't know who killed all the civilians because the israelis are holding (and hiding) all the evidence but the physical evidence we do have points only at the idf.

[-] [email protected] -2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

the physical evidence we do have points only at the idf

Not that i like to do this, but i'm pro-Hamas(, since they have no other choices left than violence in the face of colonization), and recognize that 'their bodycam'/'the dashcam/c.c.t.v.'/.. footages are authentic : https://archive.ph/Ux0yY
It's important to note that, yes, they didn't want to kill as many civilians as possible, that wasn't the aim of their operation, and the propaganda against them is, predictably, awfully biased. However even if Israel never released the full unedited footages, we have evidences : https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/18/israel/palestine-videos-hamas-led-attacks-verified
If you just say that they planned to take hostages(, and not simply "kill as many jews as they can",) then yes, we agree, but we have evidence of them killing some civilians, you can't just say "zero".
And, honestly, compared to what Israel did before&after it's not much. Of course for the western medias it's an irrecoverable trauma, we can spin things how we want, ignoring the victim's point of view while only presenting the tormentor's grievances.
And if you ask them, they'll say that they've exposed the palestinian suffering, while most of it stays hidden except on social medias(, who have to be "regulated"). But i'll admit that the western media coverage could have been worse, and won't deny that it shifted its critical stance towards Israel after a while.

while preparing under the nose of the most advanced surveillance state in history

I.d.k., perhaps, but at the same time they trained with paragliders, Egypt even warned Israel in advance. The theory that Israel let it happen because it gave them a cassus belli doesn't seem that foolish either, who knows...

In any case Oct.7th wasn't much compared to the deaths of these past decades, and the palestinian cause wouldn't have been much more advanced without it, we(sterners) are just letting the number of illegal colonies grow with the time while claiming that we support a "two-states solution".

It's probably not your thing to think about Israel's interests, but what solution would please both sides in your opinion and stop this destruction ? Again, no point in arguing for a solution that Israel would refuse, there are more than one option that could please both sides, even if people aren't discussing them. It's probably a useless question to ask you, but it seems to me that this question is more pertinent than every other discussion we could have.

  • There's the option of giving western territories to palestinians and israelis in exchange for a third of the current territory Israel+Palestine(, while muslims keep a third and jews another third), which could be accepted if the territories offered are worth it, it could bring our cultures closer to each other, and would be accompanied with billions of dollars for palestinians through a one-time global tax, etc.
  • There's the option of a common territory, with a dual governance and a control of the number of jews and muslims.
  • There's the option of jewish people embracing islam and keeping each of their books and traditions by simply becoming a specific sect of islam with their many particularities, promising to align themselves with the interest of the muslim community etc., they'd gain more population/power and territories that they could ever get through this alliance
  • There are weirder options like giving an extraterrestrial territory, such as Mars, to muslims in order to compensate for the loss of the sacred lands, but promises are cheap anyway.
  • I could probably find 3-4 more if i look into my memories/'past notes', but i'd be interested in what solutions you could find that, once again, could please both sides according to you.

Thanks in advance if you're interested in this less pointless task than a discussion on Oct.7th

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago

and fuck a peace that is acceptable to both side. Genocidal fascists belong in a hole. Kill them all. They don't get a voice in the settlement.

[-] [email protected] -5 points 1 day ago

And israelis will say the same thing towards the palestinians.
Anyway, thanks for having supported me that long, and for your interesting informations, bye :)

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago

I'm not saying "no israeli civilians" were killed by the resistance on october 7th. I am saying that there was no organizational intention to kill civilians. I'm saying the the number is under 100.

Human rights watch is a western puppet. The videos they got came from the israelis. The article has 3 incidents and the context surrounding the incidents is purposely missing. There is no link to the videos, so we have to trust that hrw's analysis is correct.

The 3rd story is the most telling re-read it. Every israeli in the article gets the "wearing civilian clothing" line except the person killed in the 3rd story.

Put the whole thing together and you get a story of a soldier/security/police using a civilian as cover. He got shot, the resistance fighters stopped shooting when they realized the soldier was hit and the remaining person was a civilian covered in a soldiers blood. They lead the civilian away and another fighter finished off the soldier instead of leaving him to bleed out and die slowly.

And that is the 3rd best evidence they could find.

The other incidents near the kibbutz and shelter could have been idf commanders that had been intentionally targeted by the resistance. Or they could have just ditched their guns a moment before the video starts. We don't know.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

2 civilian to 1 military target would put the IDF to shame. Even that 2 to 1 ratio is debatable given the use of the hannibal directive. They kill upwards of 100 civilians if not more for every 1 military personal they kill. So what they are really trying to do is wipe out the population. Killing the elders of a society is an attack on their history, killing the children is an attack on their future.

Gaza is one of the oldest cities in the world. As such an attack on it, is an attack on our history. Demolishing is destructive, but the threat of building over it is worse. To destroy all data on a hard drive, wipe is not quite enough, the bits are still there, their just writable. To really destroy the data it needs to be over written. That is what is scheduled for Gaza. It must be stopped. The halting of allowing schools to teach about slavery and the destruction brought down upon the people in the Americas before Columbus, is yet another attack on our history. This is what I mean when I say it an attack on our past.

Killing of children is a blatant attack on the future. Everything that is happening in the West bank and in Gaza could be used in case of an US civil war or even the threat of one. Eric Garner died from US police using IDF tactics. All of their tactics come back on us. Kilmar Garcia's detainment and punishment are likewise evidence of IDF tactics used here. They are attacking our future.

The attack on Palestine is aimed at not just destroying humanity, but erasing it. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere. Hope is not lost. Humanity is being attacked by extensional capitalist threat. The easiest way for a capitalist to increase the exchange value of a commodity is to eliminate the rest of the providers of said commodity. The Capitalist attack on Palestine is a naked attack of capitalism against humanity. Capitalism will erase humanity if left unchecked.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 17 hours ago

Does Israel have civilians? They are settlers, combat-trained settlers. When american settlers tresspassed into the lands of the comanche or lakota, they often died as well - which gave further rise to state action and more settler colonialism.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 13 hours ago

There is nothing Hamas could have done on October 7 that would justify committing genocide against Palestine.

this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2025
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