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submitted 4 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

The revived No JS Club celebrates websites that don't use Javascript, the powerful but sometimes overused code that's been bloating the web and crashing tabs since 1995. The No CSS Club goes a step further and forbids even a scrap of styling beyond the browser defaults. And there is even the No HTML Club, where you're not even allowed to use HTML. Plain text websites!

The modern web is the pure incarnation of evil. When Satan has a 1v1 with his manager, he confers with the modern web. If Satan is Sauron, then the modern web is Melkor [1]. Every horror that you can imagine is because of the modern web. Modern web is not an existential risk (X-risk), but is an astronomic suffering risk (S-risk) [2]. It is the duty of each and every man, woman, and child to revolt against it. If you're not working on returning civilization to ooga-booga, you're a bad person.

A compromise with the clubs is called for. A hypertext brutalism that uses the raw materials of the web to functional, honest ends while allowing web technologies to support clarity, legibility and accessibility. Compare this notion to the web brutalism of recent times, which started off in similar vein but soon became a self-subverting aesthetic: sites using 2.4MB frameworks to add text-shadow: 40px 40px 0px hotpink to 400kb Helvetica webfonts that were already on your computer.

I also like the idea of implementing "hypotext" as an inversion of hypertext. This would somehow avoid the failure modes of extending the structure of text by failing in other ways that are more fun. But I'm in two minds about whether that would be just a toy (e.g. references banished to metadata, i.e. footnotes are the hypertext) or something more conceptual that uses references to collapse the structure of text rather than extend it (e.g. links are includes and going near them spaghettifies your brain). The term is already in use in a structuralist sense, which is to say there are 2 million words of French I have to read first if I want to get away with any of this.

Republished Under Creative Commons Terms. Boing Boing Original Article.

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[-] [email protected] 18 points 2 days ago
[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

Those websites are amazing, thank you.

I checked the source to find the song only to realized I already had it in my playlist 😂

[-] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago

That is made by someone who had a Geocities website, or went 1000% in on MySpace back in the day.

[-] [email protected] 181 points 4 days ago

JavaScript, AJAX, and modern web frameworks have pushed us away from displaying information in a pure and clean way. We need to go back to a better time!

Looks at no-HTML websites

Shit, we've gone back too far!

[-] [email protected] 76 points 4 days ago

CSS on the other hand is quite essential to separate layout from content. Which is a good thing, so I can't really think of a reason for a "no-CSS" rule. Specifically if you can use inline styles as well but in a way more messy way.

[-] [email protected] 22 points 4 days ago

CSS is useful but also the devil.

[-] [email protected] 21 points 4 days ago

CSS is mostly evil when you have to center elements in the page.

[-] [email protected] 26 points 4 days ago

text-align: center

or

margin: auto

or

grid

or

flexbox

It's really not that hard now.

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[-] [email protected] 40 points 3 days ago

What we need is a subset of modern web, without any bloat, especially JS frameworks.

A lot of websites can be static HTML + CSS.

[-] [email protected] 11 points 3 days ago

The subset exists. What you're referring to is an agreement or convention.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 3 days ago

Some of these are extreme, but what you're talking about is the https://512kb.club/, just keep it small, but no limits on what you can use.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 3 days ago

A lot of websites can be static HTML + CSS.

Yeah they can, I can understand you might want to use something like php to not need to edit the footers and headers every page if you ever change them, but still.

I also like how some websites like Amazon.com refuse to add a payment platform which is more than a credit card checkout. Especially because their EU sites do have payment platforms with more options to pay. So then you have an over complicated site already with a lot of bloat and some amount of your consumers can't even pay.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 3 days ago

Then use a site generator like Hugo or Jekyll to stamp out new versions of your site with matching header/footer/etc.

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[-] [email protected] 25 points 3 days ago

Get this bs outta here. I write on paper! No one knows my thoughts or feelings!!

[-] [email protected] 12 points 3 days ago

What devilry is this? Written word? Real cultures use oral history to store knowledge!

[-] [email protected] 6 points 3 days ago

Passing information between two simultaneously existing entities? Get outta here! All cultures use the Jung collective unconscious to store knowledge!

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[-] [email protected] 56 points 3 days ago

"No HTML club" is kinda going too far on the Web. If you go there you might as well start a No HTTP Club and serve stuff over Gopher and FTP.

But we definitely need an HTML 2.0 Club.

[-] [email protected] 20 points 3 days ago

Might as well do no digital club and we exchange information through mail and pigeons.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 3 days ago

There's an rfc for that

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[-] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago

Just to mention it:

gopher://sdf.org

There is no better place for plain and real content

[-] [email protected] 15 points 3 days ago

I'll say one thing for the No CSS philosophy - at least it eliminates light-colored text on a light-colored background using the thinnest possible font, which is probably the stupidest stylistic trend since the web began.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago

I remember the wonderful feeling when Discord had a redesign in like 2017 or 2018 where they undid that awful gray-on-white design trend and made the text actually have contrast. These days the annoying trendy design thing is articles/blogs with extremely narrow width.

no i do not want to read paragraphs
that are this wide. this is making it
way more annoying to read. please
stop doing this.

at least Firefox has Reader Mode.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

I'm annoyed by that too, and I think the reason is so they can cram more ads in it. I had to turn of my adblock for a second and forgot to turn it back on while going to a news site and I swear to God 2/3rd of the page was ads. Turned it back on and those spaces were empty making only 1/3rd of the page used. Still way better tho I'm never turning it off again.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago

No kidding on the ads. I shared this experience not long ago.

https://lemmy.ml/post/31496834/19167708

And the tragic thing is there was another news site that I did the same thing with afterwards, and it was literally 2.5x worse than what I documented with The Nation.

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[-] [email protected] 11 points 3 days ago

JavaScript, the powerful but sometimes overused code

now there's an understatement.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

I fucking hate JavaScript

[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago

I guess all that's left is to form a no-utf club.

[-] [email protected] 36 points 3 days ago

I can get behind no JS club, I can’t get behind no CSS club.

CSS is 🆒

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[-] [email protected] 57 points 4 days ago

I do wonder if we're going to see some websites popping up that kind of hit the reset button on social media and go back to smaller communities of folks with something in common.

I kind of miss the days of actually having online conversations with folks you know are real people (not bots), that aren't trying to be an influencer, or get famous, or some how many money off your interactions.

[-] [email protected] 24 points 4 days ago

I think it'll happen, but I don't think it's happening yet.

The unease is already there ("the internet used to be a place"/"why isn't the internet fun any more?" sentiments and #OldWeb #SlowWeb hashtags), but I don't think people are ready to do anything about it.

I'm only one guy, with a small internet following, but I recently had a go at launching a small "Gaymers" webring (well, a simplified version of one). I promoted it on my socials, I laid out why I think it's a good idea, I paid to "Blaze" it on Tumblr – I even emailed some like-minded creators directly.

I rewrote the webpage multiple times, to try to make it more persuasive and more concise. I added a contact form in case people felt uncomfortable emailing me. I loosened the rules to allow commercial websites, as long as they were still independent. I worked hard on the widget and incorporated feedback (made it respect prefers-reduced-motion and made a static version for sites where animation would feel out of place).

I got some good feedback; lots of people said it was interesting, and a good idea. But literally no one joined or expressed any interest in joining. 🤷‍♂️

I'm going to have one more go at promoting it next time I've got money to spare, but I'll most likely end up quietly deleting it along with any evidence it existed, because a webring of one is fucking embarrassing. 💀

I guess if you build it, they will not necessarily come lmao

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[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago

I host my own website, and I decided to rewrite the JS portions in React, in order to learn the framework. Boy was it a learning experience: To do the same thing required 2-4 times the amount of code—and that’s just in the scripts, let alone the all the bloat from the packages and the bundler.

I know this is a bit more radical than cutting out frameworks, but working with the JS ecosystem was such a pain, largely because there’s you need to piece together different software to make a stack work, which may or may not go together well. And since your stack is likely unique, good luck getting help on your problems. It made me miss Rust (albeit most languages do)—in Rust, you have Cargo for everything, and it’s beautiful. Rust has its own difficulties, but they actually feel surmountable compared to the dependency hell of JS.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

The dependency hell of JS is caused by React. It's an ironic turn because node gained popularity in part because it was one of the first to have a coupled package manager with a massive public contribution model, full of a billion packages that follow the unix philosophy of "everything should do only one thing, and do it well" Dependency hell would disappear if people stopped popularizing competing swiss army knives. It's made worse by people trying to mash these swiss army knives together just to improve portfolio.

We've gotten to the point where you aren't considered a real professional unless you start even the smallest projects with maximum technical debt.

It should never be impressive that you used a tool. If the tool made programming it easier then it's not a mental feat. If the tool made programming it harder, then people should think you are kind of slow for using a tool that made development harder. This is why brag culture over what tools are used makes no sense. Just use tools that make life easier. If it doesn't make life easier, stop using it.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago

That’s fair, actually: my project had 2 packages in my node_modules (not my package.json, total dependencies!) in vanilla JS, now it has well over 100. Unreal.

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[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

React is probably overkill for most simple sites. You could still use JavaScript for some cool stuff without needing all the libraries and frameworks

[-] [email protected] 14 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Just out of curiosity what percentage of people here are using Voyager as their Lemmy client?

Spoiler

Voyager wouldn’t work without JavaScript… shhh don’t tell anyone

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[-] [email protected] 40 points 3 days ago

Just earlier I was reading about this website hosted on solar power and the extremes they went through to get the website to be simple so very little data is transmitted to save precious watts.

The website https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/about/the-solar-website/

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[-] [email protected] 48 points 4 days ago
[-] [email protected] 22 points 3 days ago

Pfff, that's nothing. My club doesn't even have a website.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 3 days ago

Oh neat! I'm working on a forum that doesn't use any javascript

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[-] [email protected] 14 points 3 days ago

How do you use hyperlinks without HTML?

[-] [email protected] 28 points 3 days ago
[-] [email protected] 27 points 3 days ago

Jesus. This is getting out of hand.

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[-] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago

That is just stupid. How about a slighly more complex markdown.

What I really want is a P2P archive of all the relevant news articles of the last decades in markdown like in firefox "reader view". And some super advanced LLM powered text compression so you can easily store a copy of 20% of them on your PC to share P2P.

Much of the information on the internet could vanish within months if we face some global economic crisis.

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this post was submitted on 25 Jun 2025
784 points (98.5% liked)

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