Can someone eli5 the open source part of this?
The article basically says Firefox isn't ditching open source but I (the author) feel like the new terms are anti-open source?
Huh? Beside the click bait title, lying about the mozzila's intention, what's the author going on about?
There's a bizarre and extremely hostile subset of users who seem to have some kind of vendetta against Mozilla and Firefox. They're not above criticism, obviously, but these people inflate literally everything with unnecessary hostility.
It's kinda letter of the law vs spirit of the law.
People got opinions of what open-source should stand for outside of just having the source code available for others to use.
I doubt Mozilla are gonna lock away the source code anytime soon, But their recent antics have rubbed a lot of FOSS people the wrong way.
That doesn't explain the hostility. Nothing Mozilla has done recently warrants anywhere near as much aggression and rage baiting as these people have been doing.
Firefox Nightly has always had more telemetry enabled by default. The idea isn't that you get exclusive first access to new features; the idea is that you're helping test future feature to make sure they're ready for a proper release. That includes helping Mozilla learn what works well.
If you don't want that, you can always wait for the feature to be released as normal, after it has benefited from testing by users who were open to informing its development.
In other words, this:
Mozilla never feature-gated new features behind data collection – simply downloading Firefox Nightly or Beta was enough to try out the newest features in testing.
is incorrect, as downloading Nightly or Beta is opting in to more data collection. See here, where it says:
Nightly is an unstable testing and development platform. By default, Nightly sends data to Mozilla — and sometimes our partners — to help us handle problems and try ideas.
And note that this was already the case before the new ToU, so it's probably unrelated to that.
/cc @[email protected] @[email protected]
Edit: although of course the nuance here is that you can optout in Nightly and still use everything.
Yes, it sends data by default - but you can disable that. Not so for Firefox Labs.
Yeah I just realised that and was going to amend my comment - you're right, that is a difference. Still, "towards spyware" is a bit too strong for my tastes. Not to mention "turns away from open source", given that I don't think the source code for any of these features is hidden or not released under the MPL.
LibreWolf has been nearly ideal for me
Sadly cannot recommend it to any non tech savvy people on Mac because LibreWolf team refuses to have the app signed. This won’t help adoption rates.
Right now I can only, reluctantly, recommend Brave and maybe in the future Zen when it becomes more stable/settled.
Ah I hadn't heard about the signing issue as I use Linux. I used Brave for a few years but it's effectively just chrome with crypto ads and a homophobic CEO. I've heard good things about Zen but I've not personally tried it.
I guess I just won't use Firefox labs then. I'm not turning telemetry on.
This is a workaround to a fundamental problem: You already have the feature installed on your hard drive. It doesn't require telemetry to run.
So why is Mozilla artificially requiring you to enable it?
As long as Firefox is open source, I can strip the requirements and recompile it.
Good for you. Most people can't, and being dismissive about this is disturbingly anti-consumer.
I'm anti capitalist. People who use FOSS aren't consumers, they're users.
Fact is that there are already several forks out there that are more privacy respecting.
This is just FUD mongering.
How?
Mozilla fans used to tell me "Stop complaining about data collection, you can just disable it and use the browser."
Well, now parts of the browser are locked behind mandatory data collection.
If you've ever worked in software development, you know that information about how your users use your software is paramount to its success.
The title of the article is extrapolating and rephrasing the statement that Firefox and Mozilla are moving away from the "spirit" of open source. That's completely different from actually moving away from open source. It's deliberate click baiting, sensationalism, and flame instigation.
They have now updated the top of their article to reflect the negative backlash.
I am fine with helping Mozilla collect useful data. But I'm also not interested in testing new features before they're ready, so I'm doubly unaffected by this. 🤷♂️ I'm usually very privacy conscious, but this is Mozilla, and I trust them. It's all about trust for me. If it's not for you, then so be it. Then this is warranted FUD.
The title of the article is extrapolating and rephrasing the statement that Firefox and Mozilla are moving away from the "spirit" of open source. That's completely different from actually moving away from open source.
This newly mandatory data collection to use certain Firefox features... Do we have the source code for the server?
I am fine with helping Mozilla collect useful data. But I'm also not interested in testing new features before they're ready, so I'm doubly unaffected by this
Good for you, but since it doesn't affect you, perhaps you can refrain from extrapolating these preferences onto Mozilla's poor behavior.
This newly mandatory data collection to use certain Firefox features...
But it's Firefox Labs, this is to test features before they're ready. If you want to participate in that, you're doing it to help Mozilla with Firefox, and it should thus be imperative that you also help with usage data as well. It just makes sense. Nothing to do with preference.
Do we have the source code for the server?
I don't know maybe? Does it matter? You should be able to inspect what telemetry data Firefox sends with a traffic sniffer of some kind.
perhaps you can refrain from extrapolating these preferences onto Mozilla's poor behavior.
You're stating as if it's a fact that it's "poor behavior". I disagree. I think it's subjective. I trust that they collect non-personal data. But of course I don't know for sure because I haven't investigated it personally. For me though, the trust is enough in this instance.
it should thus be imperative that you also help with usage data as well
When did you start believing data collection is imperative for on-device functionality that you've already got installed?
When I went to Interaction Design class at University? Part of my Master of Science in Interaction Design and Technology programme. One of the very basic things we learned. 🤷♂️ Can't really tell you which year it was, sorry. But it was sometime in the 2010s.
Anyway, the reason is to ensure that the functionality works as expected for the user as well as the designer and developers. It's just good practice. Nothing personal should be collected. Just usage data, of course.
Remember, again, this is as far as I know just for features that are in beta (the "Labs" part, right?), and being a part of Firefox Labs is opt-in. If you opt-in, you accept these terms, surely.
Up until recently, Labs did not force anyone to submit data to use it.
With your logic, Firefox can also force people to submit data if they use the browser.
Up until recently, Labs did not force anyone to submit data to use it.
Alright, well, it makes sense that they would finally require it, otherwise there's probably not enough data. Data driven design choices can often be beneficial.
With your logic, Firefox can also force people to submit data if they use the browser.
That doesn't seem familiar to my logic — no. There's a difference between opting into using beta features and using the finished, ready, and released feature in the final product. Those are fundamentally different, philosophically, to me. One is expected not to have telemetry, and one makes sense that you would help out and provide non-identifiable usage data to help make the product better.
🤷♂️ Right? That's my take anyway.
So your logic would say Mozilla should require all Firefox Beta users to submit to mandatory data collection?
The only consistent through line I see with your reasoning is adherence to what Mozilla preaches from on high. And that concerns me, because Mozilla's ethics have continued tumbling downwards since they started collecting data at all in 2017.
So your logic would say Mozilla should require all Firefox Beta users to submit to mandatory data collection?
I'm not saying they should, I'm just saying it makes sense. It's for a good cause, rather than selling it to advertisers e.g. And harmless data not meant to identify/fingerprint you, but to develop an understanding of their own product.
Selling your data also makes sense, especially for a company that is in dire straights. That's what Google did. Since 2023, this is also a Mozilla practice.
I'm just trying to figure out what your ethical bar for Mozilla is.
Since 2023, this is also a Mozilla practice.
Curious to know more about that. Is that verifiable somewhere official, that they do this? Or has it been whistleblown somehow?
If not, I still trust that they don't sell any personally-identifiable information about me.
I'm just trying to figure out what your ethical bar for Mozilla is.
I'll do my best to help, as I have been so far.
You mean the thing they just shut down?
It's still up, so nice try.
Are you trying to imply Mozilla gets a free pass for spending two years selling private data to advertisement companies?
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