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Plato got virtually everything wrong (www.prospectmagazine.co.uk)
submitted 1 day ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[-] [email protected] 19 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The hell is this article?

For one, he really fails to prove his main argument

on virtually every point that mattered he was disastrously wrong, and his errors entrenched fundamental mistakes that would hamper philosophy and intellectual culture forever more

Proceeds to critique the concept of the duality of mind and body as if its some kind of settled science rather than an open question. Which is really annoying considering he is trying to hammer Plato for being too rigid in thought.

Plato also established the method of defining terms by necessary and sufficient conditions (although that terminology came later). So, for example, he considered the idea that knowledge is justified true belief, meaning that for a belief to count as knowledge it is both necessary and sufficient that it is true and justified. This kind of search for strict definitions has dominated western philosophy but we now know that this is not how language works. In different ways the psychologist Eleanor Rosch and the philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein both described how words are far more indeterminate and that the only way to understand their meaning is to understand how they are used. The philosophers’ search for precision in meanings is like trying to draw a clear line around a fuzzy object.

It feels like this author, despite writing about philosophy, has never taken a basic course on logic. Their conclusion is hardly relevant to the argument. Could the use of words not be a fundamental perspective of what definitions it can have? In some Latin countries they have a phrase “cutting dicks” which is like “coming in hot”. Obviously there is a literal and a metaphorical interpretation to the idea of cutting dicks. The contextual use of the phrase would convey the meaning. Either way, that leaves us with no confusion as to the very clear definitions of the phrase. Despite the fact that the literal and metaphorical use are completely different, the coexistence of the different meanings does not undermine Plato’s perspective of knowledge in any way, as far as I can see.

If we wait until we all agree on precisely what justice means before trying to create it, we’ll be here until doomsday. Nor should we expect there to be one, single ideal of justice anyway. It has many dimensions, not always compatible with each other. But although we may not agree on what perfect justice looks like, we can easily agree on what counts as manifest injustice here and now. And that’s what we should focus on.

Again, this guy is killing me here. If we can “easily agree on what manifest injustice” looks like in the moment, then ipso-facto we can easily agree on what manifest justice looks like as well. I dont even agree that it is so simple for everyone to agree on what manifest injustice looks like, which would actually further his original point. But instead he shoots his own argument in the foot by not considering the inverse statement he is implying must be true. He ends up arguing basically in favor of Plato’s rigid perspective of justice. Ill also note its frustrating that he again is overly rigid in his own criticism of someone else’s logical rigidity. Did Plato argue we should sit around arguing over justice ad infinitum and never do anything, or did he argue that we can define, at least momentarily, and ideal of justice by which to enact decision making right now?

The original Socratic method is for Socrates to dictate the terms of the debate, explicitly or by cunning orchestration of the discussion, with the merely destructive goal of shredding whatever hypotheses his interlocutors propose.

While this is a fairly dramatic interpretation, a more common perspective would see the intense scrutiny of arguments as beneficial, considering it very quickly exposes logical inconsistencies. Although it is quite clear that the author is not a fan of logical consistency, so I can see why he detests a method renowned for rooting it out.

This dude should sue for a refund on his PhD program or whatever. Maybe he is better in long format, idk. But this article would hardly make good toilet paper, let alone any decent arguments

[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago

The hell is this article?

My thought, exactly. I forced myself to read it in its entirety but next time I see a link to their website I probably won't be bothered.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Less concerning to me is the magazine than the fact that this dude is a philosophy research fellow at the University of Kent. I cant imagine working on my thesis under a guy whos arguments dont hold up to the scrutiny of anyone with an introductory philosophy education

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago

In a word, he's a sophist.

The irony...

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago

I give you a lot of credit. I got about 3 paragraphs in (which was the amount I deemed necessary and sufficient enough to judge the quality of the whole) and bailed.

[-] [email protected] -3 points 1 day ago

Mind body duality absolutely is settled science, the mind is a function of the brain which is an organ in the body

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Oh, I didnt realize scientists finally cracked the case of exactly where within the mind our consciousness resides, and the mechanisms by which it functions.

Please, by all means, link me to that info. I cant believe I missed such a critical discovery.

It’s especially amazing considering we hardly have any understanding of how the brain fucking works in general. Were still hypothesizing how we can even store so much information, yet we figured out consciousness? Where the very soul stems from? Truly incredible

[-] [email protected] -2 points 1 day ago

You're right that our knowledge of the human nervous system is incomplete, but you're wrong about absolutely everything else. Even if our general knowledge were as lacking as you suggest (it isn't, read a book) the fact that we have any evidence at all for the direct link between the brain and consciousness and zero evidence whatsoever for any other hypotheses is more than enough reason to discard dualism. The soul doesn't exist, grow up.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

Im still waiting for a link to proof we understand the origin and function of the human consciousness, since its so easy to find. Go ahead, throw me one since I cant find it myself.

Since you have no clue what youre talking about, here is a clear cut example of how we are still just beginning to understand the brain:

https://www.livescience.com/health/neuroscience/star-shaped-brain-cells-may-underpin-the-brains-massive-memory-storage

Scientists are beginning to confirm that our massive capacity for memory is due to astrocytes, which we previously thought had nothing to do with memory.

Maybe you ought to question shit a bit more instead of being confident in things that experts arent even confident in. The more you know the more you realize what you dont know. And we dont know quite a few things

[-] [email protected] -2 points 1 day ago

I'm waiting for a link to any evidence at all for any sort of dualism. Asserted without evidence=dismissed without evidence, for someone who claims to know jack shit about logic and science I'm surprised I have to explain that to you. Your own link proves that we have evidence for a direct connection between consciousness and the brain, no matter how incomplete. Until you can produce evidence to the contrary you're arguing on the same level as a creationist.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago
[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Freud was just a guy who failed at finding eel genitals and then moved on to the simpler task of defining the human condition

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

https://youtu.be/SQWZMq3qHzs

My favorite non-canon Sherlock Holmes story; Holmes goes to Freud to detox from cocaine.

[-] [email protected] 0 points 1 day ago

Another of Plato’s mistakes was his weird methodological assumption that it is obligatory to define what something purely and ideally is before even trying to achieve it...

Not only that, but so often, what we envision is entirely different, when realized materially.

this post was submitted on 11 Jun 2025
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