this post was submitted on 08 Sep 2023
238 points (96.9% liked)

Europe

8484 readers
1 users here now

News/Interesting Stories/Beautiful Pictures from Europe πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί

(Current banner: Thunder mountain, Germany, πŸ‡©πŸ‡ͺ ) Feel free to post submissions for banner pictures

Rules

(This list is obviously incomplete, but it will get expanded when necessary)

  1. Be nice to each other (e.g. No direct insults against each other);
  2. No racism, antisemitism, dehumanisation of minorities or glorification of National Socialism allowed;
  3. No posts linking to mis-information funded by foreign states or billionaires.

Also check out !yurop@lemm.ee

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] muelltonne@feddit.de 63 points 2 years ago (12 children)

I'm not a fan - i totally understand why Venice is doing this, but this is a violation of my freedom of movement as a EU citizen. I'm allowed to visit every country in the EU without restrictions and I'm allowed to walk over every public space there if I want to. If Venice is allowed to do a 5€ entrance fee for their public spaces and the whole city, there is nothing preventing another rich people town from imposing a 5000€ entry fee or something like that and I really don't like that.

[–] agrammatic@feddit.de 44 points 2 years ago (1 children)

How is it breaking new legal ground, if toll roads already exist and are legal and overnight stay tax (aka tourist tax) is too?

[–] anewbeginning@lemmy.world 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Those are related to use of infrastructure/services.

[–] agarorn@feddit.de 33 points 2 years ago

So is this?

[–] pulsey@feddit.de 31 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Going to the German island of Norderney also costs a fee. Not sure the ferry, but you also pay a certain amount of money per Day. It's called Kurtaxe and it's quite similar to the proposed fee

[–] taladar@feddit.de 14 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Kurtaxe is usually just charged per overnight stay in most places. Is that different in Norderney?

[–] hillbicks@feddit.de 5 points 2 years ago

In a lot of places it already applies if you enter the beach, so this is not something new I reckon.

[–] Nerd02@lemmy.basedcount.com 25 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I get your point, but this is not about your rights as an EU citizen. I am an Italian citizen and I also have to pay, we are getting the same treatment.

[–] letmesleep@feddit.de 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah, it's indeed more comparable to the issues with fees to access beaches that already exist in many places. But of course that is an issue because it limits access to public spaces to people who can afford the fee.

[–] Nerd02@lemmy.basedcount.com 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

True to an extent, although that is a bit of a can of worms on its own. I don't know if there are any EU laws on the matter, but for what concerns Italian law they can't charge you just for accessing the beach.

Meaning, you have the right to pass through it (as it's public soil) as well as accessing the sea (cause again, it's public). If you use the beach for anything other than walking through it (including sitting, lying down and such) I think the licensee is allowed to charge you. I say it's a can of worms because in practice some places will forbid you access or make it functionally impossible with barriers and such. And usually people can't be bothered to call the cops and fill out papers, so they just go around them.

[–] letmesleep@feddit.de 1 points 2 years ago

Ah, thanks, IIrc the rules are similar in Germany.

[–] tillimarleen@feddit.de 20 points 2 years ago

not the ideal place to bring up freedom of movement. Better to fight for it in other matters. For example border checks between Austria and Bavaria that have been going on for years now.

[–] reverendsteveii@lemm.ee 18 points 2 years ago

This absolutely does not violate the EU's guarantee of freedom of movement for citizens. You're conflating your intuition about how that works ("as an EU citizen i have the right to access any and all public spaces without restriction") with what it actually means (EU member states must treat citizens of other EU member states the same way they treat their own citizens wrt entrance, access to employment, taxation and access to government services).

I think, like you, that what they're doing sucks. I think it sucks less than the alternative, which is that the city become nearly uninhabitable to long term residents due to the tourism crush. But this absolutely isn't a freedom of movement issue and to call it one makes you sound like Americans who think that getting banned from Facebook violates their free speech.

[–] TheWheelMustGoOn@feddit.de 15 points 2 years ago

Not everything is always a slippery slope argument...Also good luck enforcing this in any other city. This only works in venice because there are only a few ways to get in. To do that in lets say nice you would need to fortify the city...That will just not happen.

[–] Natanael@slrpnk.net 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Only a small number of countries have full freedom of movement within their own borders (freedom to roam) and Sweden is one of them (allemansrΓ€tten) but plenty of other countries don't. EU freedom of movement only means you can cross borders between EU countries (with related rights for employment, market access, etc). Where you can go within is decided by each country.

[–] HobbitFoot 12 points 2 years ago

Freedom of movement only applies if the restriction on entry is different between nations. If everyone needs to pay the fee, then it is hard to argue that this is restricting your rights.

[–] ntzm@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago

The thing is you pay a tourist tax if you stay in the city itself already.

[–] kilgore_trout@feddit.it 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

The fee will be imposed also on Italian citizens, so doesn't impact at all the right to free movement inside the EU.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] nudnyekscentryk@szmer.info 45 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Tourist tax is a thing in many touristy places in Europe, you usually pay it in cash to the hotel or guesthouse owner and it's around €1 per person-night. So charging €5 for tourists not staying overnight is totally fine and it's weird they didn't do it before.

[–] akrot@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago (3 children)

But how do you even enforce it?

[–] kilgore_trout@feddit.it 18 points 2 years ago

There is only one bridge entering the city from the mainland

[–] albert180@feddit.de 9 points 2 years ago

Some coastal cities in Germany do this too for their beaches. They do spot checks

[–] Natanael@slrpnk.net 4 points 2 years ago

If they have things like tollways, they can ask for proof of citizenship or proof of reservation

[–] aksdb@feddit.de 45 points 2 years ago (2 children)

That's not Ve(ry)nice of them.

[–] Sigmatics@lemmy.ca 40 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's fair. Have you seen how swamped they get by tourists some days?

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] topinambour_rex@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's mainly for cruises, if I have to guess.

[–] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 6 points 2 years ago

Hotels outside the city are much much cheaper, so many people take the train in.

[–] sexy_peach@feddit.de 44 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Venice is sinking and is small. So many people want to visit, I think it's fair.

[–] nova_ad_vitum@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I don't really care about the fee, but the damage is done isn't it? How many natives still live there who aren't directly involved in the tourism industry?

[–] Slackhare@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

To be fair, since the city isn't really fit for modern ship trading, it would be abandoned if not for tourism. Or be an exclusive hideout for rich people? You can't really preserve a city in a bubble.

[–] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 30 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I was in Amsterdam about a year ago with my wife to show her the city and it was insane. We were at the red light district around 11pm and police were there to guide people through the streets. You were only allowed (and able) to walk in a single direction because people density was literally a point away from crushing density.

I fully agree with that Amsterdam and places like it have way, WAY too many tourists

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Anamnesis@lemmy.world 23 points 2 years ago

Venice already feels like a theme park. Might as well lean into it

[–] AAA@feddit.de 22 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I don't know why some people are so outraged. It's not any different to well established practices in other countries. Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Italy (Alps part)... all have similar guest fees. Sometimes you pay them as part of your stay, sometimes separately.

[–] hh93@lemm.ee 15 points 2 years ago (4 children)

At least in Germany they always are attached to overnight stays afaik

I'm not sure how you'd enforce such a fee generally except for cities like Venice that get a lot of visitors by cruise ship

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 3 points 2 years ago

Yes and no. Things like beach usage might have a fee attached if you're not a resident which is then waived if you paid the hotel tax. There's also going to be free beaches, but don't expect those to be nice, have kiosks, whatnot. Essentially municipal-level private beaches.

[–] HobbitFoot 3 points 2 years ago

Ticket gates at the port.

[–] Aiyub@feddit.de 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I know Waren has a day fee in addition to the night fee.

[–] timkmz@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Lol been in waren multiple times (never at a hotell tho) and havent heard anything about it.

[–] Aiyub@feddit.de 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

5 month now. Maybe you have been there before or outside the taxed area

[–] timkmz@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

Ive been in the centrum, but always slept in Village a little outside the city. Well technically I once slept at the water in the centrum

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Geruchsverbot@feddit.de 17 points 2 years ago

This is outrageous!

I’m not gonna visit Venice again. Maybe I should book some more intercontinental flights to turn Venice into Atlantis.

/s

[–] catarina@kbin.social 14 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Hardly a deterrent for people arriving in cruise ships.

[–] HobbitFoot 11 points 2 years ago

Yeah, but this is definitely an attempt to get some money from them. Cruise ships are the worst when it comes to providing tourism dollars.

load more comments